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    Open tasks

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    XFD backlog
    V Aug Sep Oct Nov Total
    CfD 0 0 0 19 19
    TfD 0 0 0 5 5
    MfD 0 0 2 5 7
    FfD 0 0 1 2 3
    RfD 0 0 6 39 45
    AfD 0 0 0 2 2


    Min968 unban request

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    UNBANNED
    It has been three days with no serious objections. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    By request, I'm posting Min968's request for WP:UNBAN here. As a WP:CHECKUSER, I see no evidence of recent block evasion. Min968 was originally blocked as Ylogm (see below) and was de-facto banned under WP:3X. I'm also reposting a follow-up question and response. --Yamla (talk) 22:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I, Min968 (Ylogm), would like to request a reconsideration of my block. I now understand the importance of collaborating with other members and how crucial it is to work together to develop Wikipedia. I am an introverted person and not good at handling conflicts, which unfortunately led to a heated argument with @LlywelynII and subsequently being banned without being able to defend myself. I then used a sock account to continue editing, which was a sign of my helplessness and lack of knowledge on how to handle the situation. I acknowledge that it was wrong, and I am committed to permanently stopping using sock accounts and contributing positively, while also respecting the opinions of other members and collaborating with them to further develop Wikipedia. Blocks are not punitive. I believe I need to be given an opportunity to correct my mistakes, a chance to contribute to the community.
    My 5-year plan if the ban is lifted:
    1. Rewrite articles about the Ming emperors
    2. Improve and write new articles related to the Ming dynasty (my main area of interest)
    3. Enhance some content related to the history of Vietnam and Korea
    4. Correct mistakes and develop projects related to Chinese eras (a project I have started and also where I have made mistakes and stumbled)
    My behavior on Wikipedia:
    1. Adhere to maintaining neutrality and not obstructing the project.
    2. Interact with members in a polite and respectful manner. We are all anonymous, somewhere in this world, and we are all here with the common goal of developing Wikipedia. Sometimes there may be mistakes, but we need to maintain good intentions, keep a cool head, and respect each other. All members are human, even those who have made mistakes.
    3. Follow all of Wikipedia's rules. However, I do not believe that all rules are useful. Instead, I will lean towards resolving issues through discussion.
    Why I chose English Wikipedia and requested to be unblocked: I chose English Wikipedia simply because it is a large project, widely popular globally, and accessed and used by many people for information. I want to contribute and improve content related to Chinese history, specifically the Ming dynasty, and bring it to a wider readership around the world. Unfortunately, the content related to Chinese history is not well developed and lacks information. I myself have waited for almost 5 years to read articles about Ming emperors, but they have not improved during that time. Therefore, instead of waiting, I want to take action. Min968 (talk) 11:35, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there a reason you are not appealing this block from the Ylogm account? That will definitely be asked when this appeal is taken to WP:AN. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 01:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    When I was blocked before, I didn't know what to do or how to explain things. Usually, I just create a new account to continue editing. When I created this account, I wanted to start fresh with a more positive attitude. And when I was banned on this account, I received positive and enthusiastic guidance from @Remsense, so I chose to stick with it instead of Ylogm. Min968 (talk) 03:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I spoke at greater length six months ago on their talk page, so I'll try to be briefer here. If anyone has any further questions for me, let me know.
    Firstly, Ylogm has a track record of worthwhile constructive editing in a highly important topic area (early modern Chinese monarchs) that can particularly benefit from additional motivated contributors. In the time I've been here, Ylogm was the only consistent contributor to many of these articles. In itself, that does not justify being unbanned. However, when they say they have learned from their mistakes and want to continue editing and making contributions here, I do believe them. I support unbanning them.
    Ylogm was originally INDEF'd for disruptive behavior, namely a lack of adequate communication while undoing edits and otherwise ignoring the editorial concerns of others on articles they were working on. To be clear, I do not think anyone but Ylogm did anything wrong here, but is worth noting that the original ANI report was very brief, and the volume of prior communication concerning their conduct was limited—if normally sufficient as fair warning. They did not seem to understand why they had been blocked, which is on them. They then made this situation much worse by socking for a prolonged period, and rightfully earned this community ban. However, I do believe this to be the result of previous negligence, and not malice: if one accepts that they did not understand the social context, their attempted contributions consistently show a clear intention to be constructive during this time.
    I am not aware that anyone engaged in direct conversation with them about their conduct until March, when I made an attempt to reach out to them on their sock Min968, after initially coming to this conclusion. As they didn't seem to understand, I attempted to explain their situation one-on-one, and they were immediately receptive to this. Their reaction reinforced my belief, and I felt I should be an advocate for their case. Then and now, I would like for them to continue making substantial contributions, if they prove capable of doing so constructively. It shouldn't be surprising then that I was acutely frustrated when it became apparent they did not immediately stop socking following my initial black-and-white dialogue with them at this time—given I had made this an explicit condition of my advocacy for them. If this appeal is not successful, I think this will be the most compelling reason why.
    Even so, after being told they would would have to wait six months before their ban would be reconsidered, I believed them when they said they would do so. Given the comparatively compressed timeline of events where an apparent total lack of understanding had to be rectified, I find it plausible that they were caught in the process of recognizing the full extent of their mistakes for the first time in March. That is a confusing situation coming after months of previous confusions. I can't imagine everyone will come away with this conclusion, but I can only be honest in saying I remain convinced of Ylogm's unalloyed good faith. Now that the previous contingencies have passed, I also believe that they adequately recognize the how and why of their mistakes, and will behave competently in accordance with site policy going forward. Remsense ‥ 论 23:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support per Remsense. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support Given the explicit support of Remsense, the moral support of LlywelynII, the constructive continued editing at Chinese Wikipedia, and the fact that they\ underlying issues were merely disruptive, not dangerous, I think it's fair to extend another chance. The one thing I would ask -- though my support is not conditional on it -- is that Min968 voluntarily agree to a one-account restriction from here on out, as I think it would be beneficial for all parties, including Min968. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support unban. We could definitely use this editor in the Ming dynasty space. Last year I stopped reporting their socks because the contributions were constructive. The request is accurate: no one is improving these articles. Let's allow Ylogm / Min968 to help. Folly Mox (talk) 01:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment As blocking admin of the Min968 sock (not the master), I'm staying neutral here. They absolutely had socked in the past, but if the community thinks that there's merit to allowing this user to participate again under the WP:STANDARDOFFER I'm fine with that. The WordsmithTalk to me 05:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support unban It seems that this editor misunderstood several important aspects of Wikipedia editing when they first began, and that was probably exacerbated by lack of deep fluency in the English language at that time. I think that the editor has made great progress since then, and has indicated a genuine seriousness of purpose regarding improving articles about the Ming dynasty and a commitment to follow policies and guidelines. The only recommendation that I would make is that the editor also focus on the preceeding Yuan dynasty and following Qing dynasty to help place that Ming history into a broader context for students of Chinese history in the past 800 years. Cullen328 (talk) 07:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The difference here is that our Yuan and Qing articles have seen relatively more development and improvement by other editors; our Ming dynasty coverage is particularly weak, possibly the weakest of any dynastic period (haven't compared exhaustively: this is my impression).
    As an aside, since periodisation by dynasty has been so universal in Chinese historiography, and the political situation tended to change dramatically between dynasties (with some exceptions), it is common for people to have subject area expertise in a single dynasty while remaining largely novices in chronologically adjacent dynasties. Folly Mox (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Follow all of Wikipedia's rules. However, I do not believe that all rules are useful. Instead, I will lean towards resolving issues through discussion. I find that a pretty suboptimal declaration in an unban request; we don't pick and choose which policies are followed based on our personal opinions about their usefulness, especially in terms of "resolving issues". Grandpallama (talk) 17:55, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a good point. @Min968, I want to stress a distinction here: the rules that are there in policy are basically the result of tested best common practices, and while dogmatically adhering to their letter is counterproductive, that's not the same thing as "they're not useful". Remsense ‥ 论 18:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think this is a translation issue. I'd posit that the intent behind this statement is valuing discussion over mere rules adherence to prevent conflict (otherwise, Instead is non sequitur, and Follow all... rules immediately disclaimed). I would be interested in hearing Min968's clarifications on this at their usertalk. Folly Mox (talk) 00:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Min968 has responded to this subthread on their talkpage in three diffs. Folly Mox (talk) 02:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
    Given the result above, would it be possible for an admin to undelete the articles created by Min968 accounts that were deleted per WP:G5? Remsense ‥ 论 21:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I undeleted two of them, but then I realized that the appear to be recreating the exact same article (most of their deleted contributions are blue now), so I'm inclined to let them do that rather than use admin tools. * Pppery * it has begun... 07:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Theparties unban request

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    Open for more than a week without opposition to the unban. Low participation but worth recalling this is a block from over a decade ago (also that reblocks are cheap). Thanks to those who contributed and @Yamla: thanks in particular for the clerking and checkuser.

    Per this thread, Theparties is:

    1. unblocked and
    2. indefinitely topic-banned from Philippines-related articles, broadly construed.
    Topic ban can be appealed in six months, hopefully on the basis of a record of productive editing in other areas. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    By request, I'm posting Theparties's request for WP:UNBAN here. As a WP:CHECKUSER, I see no evidence of recent block evasion. Theparties was originally blocked as 23prootie and claims to no longer have access to that account. They were banned via Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive203#Ban_on_23prootie. --Yamla (talk) 22:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Hello, I would like to ask administrator to put forward my request to the Administrators' noticeboard for unblock, according to WP:Standard offer. I have been contributing to other Wikimedia projects meanwhile as is recommended for users at unblock requests.
    I learned my lesson. I know I should not evade a ban. And I promise that I would not do that again. I can pprove this by showing that the last time I have been caught, I actually volunteered to be caught. I did not have to admit to be a sockpuppet of 23prootie. But I admitted it showing my sincerity in turning a new leaf. I know it must be difficult to believe me but by showing that I have not ban evaded in the past few months shows that truly my intention is to follow the rules. I have been editing in the Simple English Wikipedia for the time being. Working on election articles for the Philippines. Please give me another chance. Please truly allow me to become a better editor. I also want to add tat I cannot use my original username 23prootie because I forgot the password and I do not have an email to connect it with. May this username be my reincarnation for a new and better opportunity to prove myself.
    I request that a WP:Topic Ban on Philippines-related articles be instated for me in exchange of being able to edit again on unrelated articles.
    (Rename/usurp request snipped by me, Yamla, see talk page. The reason given by Theparties was "Reason: Forgot the password. No access to email.")
    Theparties (talk) 05:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Note: The blocking admin for Theparties and the blocking admin for 23prootie are both no longer active. I did not notify them. --Yamla (talk) 22:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Self-nominations for the Arbitration Committee open

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    The self-nomination period of the Arbitration Committee elections is now open. The deadline for submitting a candidacy is 23:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Request to remove topic ban

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    NOT DONE
    This has been open for two days without anyone supporting it. OP is strongly advised to mitigate the length of their posts in the future. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I am topic banned for weapons and Japan which are two topics I am interested in and have considerable knowledge and sources, and which I enjoy writing about. I did make a ton of mistakes when new and caught the eye of a particular admin who rightly took me to task.

    Reason for topic ban: As my editing skill increased, so did that admins attention on me. We had many content disputes because they did not carefully review the sources. My user talk page has many examples of this if you need it. There were many more like it.

    This admin made countless assertions that material wasn’t in particular sources (when it was clearly was in those sources). This caused borderline reference spamming but the false assertions of failed verification were coming even faster the plethora of verifiable sources, despite every source stating it. Eventually they would say that they read a source, but this was typically only long after numerous allegations of something not being in that source and just as many deletions of all of material it referenced. Working with that person proved untenable. I’m sorry I don’t have all of the links or diffs to post here now. But they exist somewhere!

    I had a large draft I was reorganizing per that editors request/demands. I was trying to work with him. The admins valid observation was that the draft was too big and covered too many topics. (In hindsight, I may have built a Frankenstein).

    I moved masses of material from my draft into many main pages including some new main pages. My draft reorganization effort was ongoing. Only 1.5 hours after my last edit, this admin complained at Mfd that I was refusing to reduce the size of the draft by narrowing the topics AND that it was WP:STALE. But the assertions were blatantly untrue. They came after yet another heated content/source incident. These exchanges are perfect examples of the admin behavior being described. Nevertheless, the involved admin had the draft permanently removed without any review of the merits of the reasoning. Mfd did not check to see whether anyone was being accurate or truthful That Mfd was appealed and voted for. I lost as only a rare few reviewed the merits. Those that did, verified my version of events (I think). Most participants did not and review merits nor any of the diffs showing the moves and decreasing size nor of the recent edits. If they had, the untruth of the admin would have been exposed. But, the WP:VOTE upheld it. There was a weather event here and family death during that process and I had no access to WP.

    This same admin then created his own version of the page with much of the same the content he had deleted from my sandbox. It’s what remains on the main page right now. Their version of that article is not remotely close to a complete picture of the subject per the sources. Yet they fully understood the scope the subject encompassed when they were reviewing at what I had edited in my sandbox. The current page is a small fraction of this subjects scope content that was deleted.

    I restored the draft to my sandbox to cut it up in more parts and was eventually topic banned. I also made some edits and talk comments on the newly created subject page created by that administrator in violation of the TBAN.

    It took a bit for that rule to sink in because it seemed so unfair. Time has passed and I request the ban be lifted but without giving me or anyone else the benefit of doubt. I’d like some assistance in finding the post-MFd (appeal?) as there is a diff that shows the draft revisions from before material was removed up to the point of deletion. That diff would prove quantitatively when, whether and how much the sandbox draft content had been reduced. If the diff was clicked there would be no need to accept my assertion nor the other editors admission that it was in fact being condensed despite his MFd claim that it was not. My behavior(s) sprang from that abuse from involved admin over content, and then his achieved goal in making his own page with that material.

    I reacted badly and ignored or broke rules in reaction. There’s no excuse or defense. It’s an explanation that I hope is understood.

    I’d appreciate any other links that can be found and for any decision to be made on the merits I put forth. However, that might be a TLDR situation. In the past those upholding the deletion and my ban did not look closely and took untrue words at face-value.

    After Mfd, the involved admin came onto my talk page and admitted that despite his mfd claim, I had in fact, been reducing the size of my draft and the secondly that it was not “Stale”. Those are the very reasons he had the draft nominated to be deleted. He admitted he knew the concerns that he used to get my draft deleted and me eventually topic-banned were false. Did that admin work to restore my draft or have my topic ban removed? We’ll, I wouldn’t be here asking now if he had! A large part of my talk page is interaction with or about that admin. Feel free to look and my talk page or for additional links and diffs.

    If you read nothing else, please read the admins quotes below!

    Obviously draft was being edited yet the reason provided was no improvements and being stale. When the assertion were made the assertions were already know to be untrue. This is not disputable.

    "MfD debate: At Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/OpRedHat “I have nominated your stale userpage for deletion. Regards”

    Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/OpRedHat "The user has not condensed the material."

    Compare my talk page comments from the very same admin who nominated it at MFD (and remember it was a sandbox draft). If it met the main page article requirements it would have been in the main space not my sandbox!

    "Yes, of course you were tinkering with the draft." “Possibly I should have explained myself more clearly. The implied additional clause in 'The user has not condensed the material" is 'to produce an article that meets the requirements of WP:ARTICLE' etc.

    Yes, I responded poorly. I responded by ignoring MFD and a ban because it was based on the above assertions of that involved admin that were admittedly false.

    I want to edit topics covering weapons and Japan and further I’d prefer a block on the involved admin from interacting with me in the future. Johnvr4 (talk) 08:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I did not alert the other editor because I didn’t mention his name. I want nothing else to do with them. Johnvr4 (talk) 08:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC) (fixed a few typos)Johnvr4 (talk) 13:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • For the reference of anyone else who tries to make sense of this appeal, the topic ban was imposed here. I'd also note that if you are asking for an interaction ban with another editor, you need to alert them whether or not you mention their name. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Only 2 mainspace edits in more than 1 year. In fact, your appeal reflects your battleground mentality and justifies the topic ban. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 13:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Question Would Johnvr4's edits to Midget submarine violate the topic ban on weapons, broadly construed? It's entirely unclear to me if a midget submarine is itself a weapon or if it is a container of weapons. And either way, if that would be covered. Note that Johnvr4's last edits to that article were more than a year ago. --Yamla (talk) 13:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's certainly toeing close to the line. It's also close to the line of the "Japan" topic ban, given that his edits there primarily relate to the GIMIK project which (according to the sources he added) was intended to infiltrate Japanese-occupied Korea and then Japan itself during WWII in preparation for an American invasion of Japan. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:14, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • (Also within the last fifty articlespace edits are a series of seven to Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quote, which seems to be clearly within the scope of a TBAN on Japan broadly construed. It was back in December 2021, but Johnvr4 has made only 20 mainspace edits since then) Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          To help answer the question, talk pages and my sand boxes are where most of my most recent editing is contained, in a draft I was working on, and will need to come back to. In sandbox drafts, there’s also mention of a notable crashed training TB-25 which could be considered a weapon if it wasn’t a trainer or had guns or bombs. It didn’t. It had a famous general.
          If these examples are even borderline TBAN violations then I am clearly misunderstanding the broad scope of this ban.
          An unarmed OSS semi-submersible for Korea (and that was never deployed) is nether a weapon nor about Japan and the fact that someone once wrongly assumed it was a Japanese vessel is not a qualifying factor.
          Similarly, a statement falsely attributed to a Japanese historical figure but in fact had nothing to do with anything he said is not related to Japan.
          If broadly construed to be "related" to Japan is because it was uttered in response to the Pearl Harbor attack then in my view, that is way too broadly construed. If that is considered a violation, then I beg for removal of the TBANs which I believe I am compliant with.
          I am considering an article on a scientific bird study by the Smithsonian and WHO and others. There is an allegation that the program was secretly implemented for a biological warfare program. Perhaps it was. the allegation has been officially denied. I don’t want to have to tip toe around a subject (Toyota cars for example) or wonder if some obscure relationship might trigger a TBAN violation. I really don’t want to have to constantly worry or be so constrained by it. It's difficult to work like that even more so because of how it happened in the first place. Due to a required source on the subject, a 2023 book by Ed Regis, I can not cover much of the subject and it would certainly eventually trigger the TBAN if I tried and made a mistake. Just mentioning that potential source reference to a different editor who is also interested in the subject might be considered a TBAN violation. So I'm limiting my participation in main page editing until other admin can under what is my topic ban is about and why I believe (with very convincing evidence) that it's application (not to mention the admins deletion of the sandbox draft).
        • Let's please be reasonable. These are not controversial edits nor are they crossing any TBAN red lines. I am here to request that I don’t need to watch that line so closely so I can continue editing on subjects I enjoy.
          I also apologize for the typos, this is from a phone and spellcheck is going haywire on grammar. I’ll try to fix them without disruption. Thank you for the missing link(s).
          I am flexible on the interaction block. A look at our past interactions should help to determine necessity of blocking interaction. Thank you for the consideration.16:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) Johnvr4 (talk)
        • some typos addressed Johnvr4 (talk) 13:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The initial appeal is textbook WP:NOTTHEM, with barely anything addressing Johnvr4's own behaviour or why we should lift the TBAN beyond that they want to edit articles covered by the TBAN. Johnvr4's response to my raising their edits on Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quote also does not give me confidence that we should loosen their restrictions. A quotation attributed to a Japanese admiral about Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour is clearly related to Japan broadly construed, but Johnvr4's position is apparently 1. it's not and 2. if it is, we should lift the TBAN because they have violated it? If they cannot understand the connection between that article and Japan, I have absolutely no confidence that they are capable of understanding and avoiding the issues which led to the TBAN in the first place. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't intend to comment on every contribution. I do not intend to present a wall of further arguments.
      I very much appreciate ALL contributions to this request and want to expressly thank you personally for helping make sense of my initial submission and for providing useful links.
      Regarding the Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quote, there is no legitimate attribution to any Japanese General that is valid, including that expressed in that page's references and title (period). The falsehood, or more accurately, the Myth about Folklore has verifiable coverage in many sources but in the face of the original quote, they are factually dubious and can no longer be relied on for accuracy or verification. The quote ("...and also don’t forget, sometimes you can strike a giant who is dozing momentarily, when the giant is awakened, look out.") is from an American about Giants. The comment came in the aftermath of something from Japan and specifically one day after. Now, if you want to listen to the entire Radio show, and present each of the times it does or does not mention Japan, you can. It could be relevant to a violation complaint or not. The title of that page itself is an issue because it falsely ties this quote to Japan or the Japanese. It is clearly a myth and a false one at that is not related to Yamamoto.
      I do not believe the WP:BANX tag for that edit was required or I else would have used it in my edit summary. I would think WP:OR would be your complaint there as no other source anywhere that ties these two subjects or offers anything verifiable. Verification is why I linked the original source.
      We can agree there is an important and valid concern about that page (and title) and sources etc. But I cannot raise the issue nor participate in important discussion because of the TBan in combination with a widespread mistaken belief of it being Japan-esqe.
      I can see that you are adamant and serious about your concern of these edits as a TBAN violation, which I do not want to take lightly even though I wholeheartedly disagree with it. I think there is a separate place to raise that concern and I agree to participate in that process, should you bring it or any of my other edits you may have concern with to that forum.
      To clarify, any concern or concerns being raised, It was me and only me who made the edits that previously violated the TBAN. As stated above, I did that. I reacted badly and I own that behavior (period).
      What I was reacting to is spelled out in diffs and links. No one has to believe me to sort it out. It's there, laid bare for all. I can, in fact, understand why NotThem concerns are being put forth by those who glance at the surface of the matter. The NotThem concern requires the other parties actions to be free from the valid policy concerns I raised and that simply is not the case per the evidence available to all in links, and diffs, and concerns previously raised in discussion and elsewhere. Complaining that I was being disruptive while they were deleting any text or sources that disputed their POV was the easiest way to deal with my concerns about them and their editing and which eventually led to my behavior. The TBAN for my behavior was a consequence of that.
      I am not claiming innocence, but the facts edits, diffs, sources and everything else should give anyone pause before repeating the NOTTHEM (or any other concerns) that first raised by the very same admins involved in the behavior I've described and have strong evidence that confirms it at the links you've provided us (again thank you for that).
      One super-easy test for this is to ask yourself, "Did the Red Hat Operation last for Six months, or did it last for Thirty years"?
      After simple verification answers that question to your satisfaction, then it's just a very obvious a POV issue.
      The (Johnvr4 sandbox4?) version that the other admin was successfully able to remove from WP stated that this Operation lasted for 30 years with exhaustive details and reliable sources with a plethora of detail about all three parts of the operation. The 30-plus-year scope of the Operations was verifiable by that admin and all other participants in the reliable sources that cited it and that version may still visible to admins that can still access it (I can't). 267th Chemical Company for example, uses a few of those sources but they are more than enough for any competent editor to verify super-easily that the subject Red Hat mission extended from the mid-1960s deployment up to the 2001 destruction of the Red Hat component agents. No one can argue otherwise. ...Except the other Admin and those involved with them in that effort.
      The other admin stated numerous times their goal of an Operation Red Hat article that only covers (their words) "the core" six-month Red Hat redeployment occurring in 1971. there are many example of this in the links you provided above. The Red Hat Operation was initiated around 1965 and was already going on years before 1971 with the initial deployments and then continued right up to 2001. What you are claiming as strong examples of NOTTHEM, is, in fact. Them. One can verify that editors obvious POV in the version of the article Operation Red Hat they resurrected and in the process to delete the article's history and talk page as well. My ban was in part related to his action to insert his POV and to reinsert nonsense and bad sources into the main space which I had already corrected long ago.
      To alleviate POV concerns I raised (Diff:[1]], he had to reinsert material he deleted from my sandbox to avoid my obviously valid NPOV/PFORK complaint. His version now republished was never an improvement and is wholly incomplete. Someday (not soon), I may revisit that page if asked but the community has decided they want his POV version over that which I had presented in the verifiable sources I cited. In my view, the community can be stuck with his version. The community worked really had to get that version and they deserve it now and without improvement, for eternity! There was an alternative to doing that. There are quotes from that editor that contradict every other assertion that he's ever made about it made or expressed in any forum about the version I was redeveloping. Never, not even once did that admin find something not verifiable in my sandbox. Please note that the reasons the admin stated for the removal of my sandbox that he put forth at MFD and everywhere else were entirely his own fabrication and that he actually came back to my talk page afterwards to leave comments where he stated that of course what he had alleged in order to have my sandbox deleted wasn't entirely accurate and basically admitted deception which is precisely that which many others latched onto (specifically complaints stale, abandoned, not being reduced in size per his requests, Not-here Not-them etc.). Those efforts were not me. That, was THEM; plainly displayed. These are inescapable facts with diffs that can bare out false allegations-easily. Please consider facts with diffs and examples before alleging WP:NOTTHEM behavior and repeating unfounded opinions as alleged by others (without diff or links). Johnvr4 (talk) 16:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - WP:TLDR, your posts are way too long. GoodDay (talk) 16:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I know. I can't help it. Johnvr4 (talk) 18:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Then we're in WP:CIR territory, and you might find yourself facing even stronger sanctions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Linking Trump with dictatorship

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    NO ACTION AT THIS TIME
    The edits in question and their assosciated edit sumarries are clearly not acceptable, but appear to be an isolated incident. @HM2021: should consider themselves warned against repeating this type of behavior. (Also agree that this should have been at ANI.) Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I'm concerned about @HM2021:'s recent edits at Donald Trump & Dictator. GoodDay (talk) 02:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Absolutely inappropriate. We can include sources to the comments Trump's made about that, but saying he is/will be one in Wikivoice is a complete violation. — Masem (t) 02:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Edits like this make me wonder what they've done in the past and should we be reviewing more then just today's edits. Moxy🍁 02:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed. GoodDay (talk) 02:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am an innocent editor and the edits I made in the past are nothing to do with politics. Just LEAVE ME ALONE. I won't touch those two articles again I promise. HM2021 (talk) 02:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Here are links to three of HM2021's edits here, two on Trumpty-Dumpty's page, the first and the second, quotes that "America is DEAD" in the edit summary and another on Dictator, reading "America is doomed".
    The first Trump vandalism was made at 02:29, November 7, 2024 and the second, which was a revert of removal of the first Trump vandalism, was made at 02:32, November 7, 2024. The Dictator vandalism was made at the same time as the revert HM2021 made on Trumpty-Dumpty's page, at 02:32, November 7, 2024.

    @User:HM2021, don't try to pull a trick over on the admins with the ol' "the edits I made in the past ... I won't touch those two articles again I promise" card, when it hasn't been even a half-hour since your disruption was done. What in the sam hill were you thinking? This probably should have gone to WP:DRAMABOARD instead. BarntToust 02:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    This should probably be moved to ANI. While judging these edits to be unacceptable, let's also acknowledge the election stress this week. If these three edits are part of a pattern, I could see advocating for a topic ban but if this was a momentary lapse in an otherwise okay editing career, I think a warning is sufficient. But again, this seems like a case for ANI, not AN. Liz Read! Talk! 07:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    haha, Liz! I think that's right. the editor probably got carried away. I was thinking the same thing about why GoodDay brought things here. eh, no matter anyways. BarntToust 11:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Edit filter manager request for non-admin

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    Nom withdrawn Star Mississippi 03:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hello all, there is an edit filter manager application open for a non-admin. For information or to participate in the discussion, please see the edit filter noticeboard. EggRoll97 (talk) 07:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    ACE2024

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    In case you haven't noticed, WP:ACE2024/C is currently listing 3 candidates for the 9 open arbcom seats. What strikes me about the three is that they are all either current or former arbs. What is probably happening right now is what typically happens: there's a bunch of former arbs sitting on their hands and they'll add their names as the nomination window is nearly over. I'm not saying that having former arbs is bad, but in the big picture, we need new blood to keep the thing going. So all of you admins out there, please consider taking a step up and running for arbcom. RoySmith (talk) 02:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'll throw my hat in the ring if we get approval to unionize. I think the pay arbitrators get here is substandard compared to that of arbitrators in similar positions on other collaborative editing projects.
      Seriously though, how can there be 9 open positions? Isn't it typically 6? Liz Read! Talk! 07:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      It's typically either 7 or 8, depending on whether we're electing Tranche Alpha (7) or Tranche Beta (8). This year we're electing Tranche Alpha, so that's 7 positions, but Maxim and Firefly (both elected last year to Tranche Beta) recently resigned, bringing the number of open positions up to 9. --rchard2scout (talk) 08:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      We could upgrade your boring, basic mop to a Smart Mop(TM), would that do? -- asilvering (talk) 17:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • RoySmith's concerns are really valid. All of the current candidates have already served more than one term within the past 8 years. I really encourage administrators with a year or two under their belt, particularly those who feel comfortable working as part of a team or who have experience with dispute resolution, to give this some thought. This isn't to criticize the experienced hands who have put themselves forward; it is to emphasize that "new blood" is essential for Arbcom to do its best work. Risker (talk) 08:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Full disclosure, recently I was asked to consider running again this year (after about 10 years away), but having just come off the very intense work of the MCDC, I need to do more project-based work and less committee work for a while.[reply]
    • I was going to ask a question this morning about numbers etc, but Roy and Risker have now answered it. I wonder how many editors/admins are in my position — happy to help, a little hesitant given the burnout witnessed from consecutive Committees, somewhat hopeful that 10-12 other good options nominate so they don't have to, but will if numbers stay skinny. This might sound incredibly selfish but ArbCom does not seem like it would be 'fun' in the slightest; at best it could be considered rewarding. It's a big commitment (potentially two years) and that's a lot to ponder when considering throwing one's hat in the ring. Daniel (talk) 09:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm in the same place, Daniel. I was an arbitration clerk for two years and I know how much work is involved at some points and how much criticism even the most functional committee receives. That leaves me with mixed feelings. It would help to hear some former arbitrators issue a sales pitch for why it was a rewarding experience. Liz Read! Talk! 09:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        @Liz and Daniel: To a certain extent, many hands make light work. Obviously most of the committee needs to get involved in the big cases but we only have a few of those per year. You're both experienced admins so taking flak for a necessary but unpopular decision should be nothing new. I've been doing it for a year now and it's not as bad as I imagined so I'd encourage you both to run. If you really hate it, you could always resign at next year's election but new blood is important and so is having an election with enough candidates for it to be meaningful. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I have enjoyed my experience on ArbCom, even though I have not been the most active. There are many roles within the committee, so members can work in the areas or topics that are most interesting to them. Moving checkuser blocks to the community has lightened our workload to devote more time to other activities. The admin tasks that I think are most similar to working on ArbCom are AE, unblock requests and checkuser: those thinking about running can participate in those areas to see if they like that work. I strongly encourage anyone who is interested in ArbCom to run: I do not regret my decision and I feel like it is a fantastic place to help make Wikipedia better for its editors. Even if you are not successful, you can get some ideas on where you can find places to improve your skills on the admin side of Wikipedia. If anyone wants to reach out to me they are welcome to send me an email. Z1720 (talk) 14:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    *Dracula voice* "We need ze blood! Ze fresh blood!" But seriously, yes we do need new folks on the Committee from time to time. I can say that it is one of the best and most rewarding things that I do in my life. It provides a lot of transferable skills. I also find it easy to do on the go, which is a real bonus over regular editing. Don't wanna be scrolling mindless social media? Why not try reading Arb discussions! Don't feel like you have to come in as a perfectly formed judicial decision machine. We need the same thing we need in admins: humble people willing to learn. The time commitment is different depending on your style. Some people go in sprints, some run a marathon; ArbCom needs both tortoises and hares to run well. I think the work that ArbCom does is important and really makes a difference. It's not all sunshine and roses, as various guide writers (see User:Barkeep49/ACE) have put more eloquently than me, but it's meaningful, engaging work. So if you're on the fence, I really do encourage you to throw your hat into the ring! Or if you know some whippersnapper who'd make a good choice, why not send them a message encouraging them to run? I would have never run if it were not for a community veteran who privately encouraged me to take the leap. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I also find it easy to do on the go, which is a real bonus over regular editing. This, 1000%, is such a key selling point for me. I travel for work (far more than I'd like), and while I read Wikipedia/discussions/etc. every day, there are some days I just can't edit when travelling. Emails and just being across things are fine, but to sit down and actually edit on a plane or in a hotel just sometimes doesn't happen. Thanks for sharing your experiences CaptainEek, as well as HJ Mitchell and Z1720 above — it is genuinely appreciated. Daniel (talk) 00:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it's much easier to keep up with emails on a phone than it is to do any serious editing. If you're used to reading and digesting discussion threads in between daily life you'll probably find ArbCom quite manageable. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What has kept me from throwing my hat in the ring, year after year, is that a) I enjoy the editing work I do now and that is pretty time-intensive and b) I don't want a repeat of my experience from my RFA which was grueling. But maybe arbitration candidates are treated more kindly than admin candidates. I do have a draft of a statement written up but I'm still undecided based on the two points I mentioned. Liz Read! Talk! 05:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The biggest difference in the ArbCom elections is that the voting is secret, so you only have the question phase. That makes it less grueling in many ways, although even the questions can be tricky - I know I spent an hour figuring out how to answer a tricky question in my RfA but I guess I got it. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:31, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Obviously I can't speak for ACE or EFA personally, but if you read the debriefs from the folks who just tried the admin elections, the general impression is that secret ballot made the whole thing pretty painless. Actually, one of the common complaints from the candidates who got more opposition is that they don't know what turned people off of them! The opposite of a gruelling RfA, really. -- asilvering (talk) 06:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Note to anyone waiting until the last minute: That would be right now. There are nine seats open and only ten applicants. You have two hours. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know whether or not it was your message, Just Step Sideways, but we got two more candidates in the final two hours. Liz Read! Talk! 05:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I seriously feel a lot better. More candidates, to a point, are a good thing. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 05:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Is there a way to get an ENWP account blocked for multiple account abuse without filing an RFCU?

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    Hi there. I am editing on the Simple English Wikipedia, as well as this one, and this afternoon I've discovered an account on the Simple Wikipedia, belonging to someone who also has an account here. User:Times Daily has been blocked indefinitely (on Simple) for abusing multiple accounts.

    The block was enacted by the administrator / checkuser User:Vermont on Friday November 1st 2024. Without carrying out a CU here, is there any way of getting the user blocked on here too, since they have been active with similar articles to those written on the Simple site, or do you have to conduct a local CU for the English Wikipedia, too?

    The notice to the user is linked here: simple:User_talk:Times_Daily#November_2024.

    Thank you. Dane|Geld 17:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    We'd need evidence that they have been abusing multiple accounts on this project. Do you know the name of the other accounts they used over there? Girth Summit (blether) 17:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't. I can check for an SPI over there, and see if their other accounts are listed. I'll have to wait for a few moments, because I'm in the process of putting out the notices to the involved editors I've mentioned. I'll get on it in a moment. Dane|Geld 17:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Girth Summit: - I can only see one on the SPI for Times Daily there, and that's User:The Unknown Explorer, who has not edited this site. They are however, connected. Involved parties (Vermont and Times Daily) have now been notified of this thread. Dane|Geld 17:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This has been an issue for over a decade, in that one CU block doesn't carry over to other projects and CUs rarely notify other affected projects in which the accounts have activity on. There is an additional process by filing the report on meta:Steward requests/Global to get a sockpuppet account global locked by stewards when this step should have been automatic. OhanaUnitedTalk page 06:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ping to @JBW:, who issued them a final warning; there are several issues with Times Daily (talk · contribs) that were flagged by multiple editors, including copyvios, trying to push a certain autobio with title evasion, and CIR concerns (calling readers 'viewers' in edit summaries for instance). Nate • (chatter) 17:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I noticed only one, User:The Unknown Explorer, and they have not made any edits to en.wiki.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Extreme Personal Attacks

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    49.36.183.242 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    This IP addresses is personally attacking me in very extreme way. They are calling me Khalistani, (a supporter of a militant movement) and are accusing me of being an "anti-Indian" user. They are also in a very subtly manner suggesting a legal action against WMF, they admit to word it in such a way in order to avoid WP:NLT. ਪ੍ਰਿੰਸ ਆਫ਼ ਪੰਜਾਬ (PrinceofPunjab | ਗੱਲਬਾਤ) 17:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Blocked 31 hours for making personal attacks and legal threats. Valereee (talk) 17:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This says (I think) these needs to be longer [[2]]. Slatersteven (talk) 17:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    TPA revoked for making what I interpreted as legal threats, despite their clumsy attempt to obfuscate it as expert advice. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed; "stop this or you'll get sued" is a legal threat no matter how you phrase it. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    84Swagahh unban request

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    Appeal accepted. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Request reason:

    Hello members of the Wikipedia administration reviewing my request for unblock, It has been six months since my last request for unblock and editing activity on the English Wikipedia. Per the standard offer and other rules on Wikipedia, I have not used any other account or IP address to edit on any Wikimedia project during this block. In addition, I promise that I will not repeat the behavior that led to my blocks. This behavior including creating and abusing sock-puppet accounts, vandalism, harassment, disruption, and username policy violations. Lastly, I do not believe that given reasons for people to object my return. I have avoided bad behavior and contributed to other projects during my block. During this block, I have been active on the Simple English Wikipedia. I have made over 1400 contributions and have not received any warning during my time. I reverted bad-faith edits using twinkle, gave those users warnings, nominated articles for deletion, performed copy-editing, welcomed new users, and expanded articles. I have applied for the roll backer permission and successfully earned it, meaning I am in good standing with the project's administration. However, I have not been as active with editing on the Simple English Wikipedia recently than I was the last 6-11 months. I still spent time reading articles on Wikipedia, but I just wasn't as active. I believe that this shows my efforts towards returning to the community and my ability to make positive contributions. Please note that this request was shorter than my last request in order to make it easier for administrators to review. If there are any questions for me, please ask me and I will respond to them. Thank you, 😂🤣84Swagahh🤣😂 17:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Because he is banned via WP:3X, I'm bringing the request here. There is no evidence of recent block evasion (see brief discussion at User talk:84Swagahh#Unblock Request through the Standard Offer). What he says about his activity on simple-wiki is true; there is some additional relevant discussion here. -- asilvering (talk) 21:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Closure request for Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 October 28#Ivy Wolk

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    Would an admin please close Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 October 28#Ivy Wolk? The consensus is obvious, but only an admin can implement it. Posted here because no admins watch WP:CR. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    no admins watch WP:CR a rather bold statement given there are over 600 people watching that page. Seems statistically unlikely. Primefac (talk) 13:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
     Done. I know plenty of admin who watch WP:CR, and I personally used to keep an eye on WP:DRV, but I took a break recently. Will try to help with backlog there when possible. Isabelle Belato 🏳‍🌈 13:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Can someone delete my Userpage User:Blidfried

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    thanks--Blidfried (talk) 17:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I've done this. If you have a request like this again please use {{U1}}. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Redirect

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    I was trying to create ஃ (film) as a redirect for Aayutha Ezhuthu, as the lead of that article notes: "The film's title was taken from the name of a Tamil letter ஃ – three dots corresponding to the film's three different personalities from completely different strata of society." But was hit with a blacklist warning.

    Can this be created as a redirect?

    PS: Not sure why this is in the blacklist in the first place, would be great to know the reason. Thanks. Gotitbro (talk) 18:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Gotitbro, is the film actually called that anywhere, or is it just where the name comes from? (please do not ping on reply) Primefac (talk) 19:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed it is, the title is a direct transliteration of the letter after all, and from what I can tell the reason the letter isn't broadly used is due merely to technical reasons (in print and otherwise). See for example [3] and [4]. Gotitbro (talk) 19:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
     Done. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As for the reason, the comment in the blacklist entry is "potentially confusing mixed-script titles." I can't tell you any more than that. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:16, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Revdel

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    Hi, Could you please revdel this? And blocked the talk page as well? Yann (talk) 22:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Looks like User:Secretlondon removed TPA back in October and User:Fathoms Below revision deleted that edit. So, all done here. Liz Read! Talk! 05:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The username alone is powerful evidence that this person came to Wikipedia only to troll. Cullen328 (talk) 03:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Guidance to participants at a particular AfD, please

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    David Eppstein put his mop to excellent housekeeping use. Star Mississippi 23:19, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gerard Gertoux has descended into a somewhat arcane discussion about a religious concept rather than being confined to whether the biography being discussed should stay or go. I can't find an obvious place to ask for whatever guidance is available to participants to be given, so I'm hoping this is the right board.

    I realise that the eventual closer is well able to disregard any off topic material, but their job will be easier if it is handled at this stage. What I perceive as clutter is becoming rather large and imposing. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 08:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Perhaps not needed. David Eppstein has engaged in selective hatting of off topic material. Thank you, David. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 08:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:94.64.80.27

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    the IP 94.64.80.27 keeps adding unicode swastikas to the Scholz cabinet article. Please block immediately. ⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 21:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Done, blocked for one week. --Yamla (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I feel like this is the sort of thing that an edit filter should be able to catch... — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Permission gaming after warnings

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    Uncle Ramon has been blocked (and globally locked) as an LTA. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 09:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:Uncle Ramon seems to be making a ton of useless edits to user talk page to get to Extended Confirmed. They have been made aware that this is prohibited, but they have deleted that notice and continued, so here we are. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm doing it because I can't post on someone's talk page because I need to talk to them about something and their talk page is extended confirmed protected Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    (I'm so dumb, I posted this in AN thinking this was AN/I...) There is always an option to request a decrease in protection level or reach the editor in a different way. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What other way to reach them is there? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You can just ping them. win8x (talking | spying) 06:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't want to cast aspersions, but with recent LTA's always being here, I am led to believe they want to edit Qcne's talk page. The user could just tell us who's talk page they want to edit, but doesn't want to tell. win8x (talking | spying) 06:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Huh? Who's Qcne?

    I'm not looking to contact that user, and their talk page isn't even ECP'd

    I just looked upon going to that person's talk page Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, who are you trying to contact? We can contact them for you. win8x (talking | spying) 06:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But I don't want anybody to contact them tho

    That's what I'm trying to get at

    I want to be the one to contact them Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, this user came outta nowhere just today and they already know jargons like "ECP". I'm probably bad at assuming good faith here. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well you create an account and you already need to contact someone. There aren’t tons of ECP user talk pages. I want to assume good faith though, but I wanted others who see this report to consider the possibility. win8x (talking | spying) 06:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, because I just created an account 2 months ago. I'm pretty sure 2 months is enough to know what ECP is. Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You started editing today. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 06:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So just because I started editing today that means I didn't start READING Wikipedia until today...?
    And I'm somehow supposed to magically assume that I don't know anything about the user permission rights because I just started editing today? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:37, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Extended confirmed revoked. You can make a request to regain that permission after making 500 real edits. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 06:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Then how am I supposed to contact the person I want to contact if their talk page is extended confirmed protected? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You’ve had plenty of offers to help. See above. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 06:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I already said I don't need their help. So I'm not sure why you… felt the need to take my extended confirmed privileges away. Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Gaming the system. You were warned multiple times. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 06:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Over a talk page?????? Uncle Ramon (talk) 06:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Uncle Ramon, yes, this is over a talk page. The intent of the 500 edit requirement to achieve WP:ECP is to show convincingly that the editor is learning about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. An editor who repeatedly adds just another period to a long list of periods that does not improve the encyclopedia in any discernable way is learning nothing of value and is "gaming the system". That is what you have been doing, and if you want to have a conversation with another editor whose talk page is protected due to harassment, then there legitimate ways to do so, such as pinging that editor to this conversation. Your refusal to do so and reluctance to explain yourself indicates that your intentions are not productive. Cullen328 (talk) 07:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not pinging them here because I dont want to ping them, I want to post on THEIR talk page. I already explained myself several times so I'm not being reluctant AT ALL to explain myself, y'all just dont want to listen. I said I wanted to post on another editor's talk page and I wanted to start the conversation from there, on THEIR talk page. Not anywhere else. I'm not understanding why the fuck y'all take a privilege away from somebody that already EXPLAINED their intentions and then refuse to give it back to them, when there shouldnt fucking be a restriction on the other page in the first place. Uncle Ramon (talk) 07:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Following their permissions being revoked, they have left this message for rsjaffe. Given the wording used, I don't think they understand the situation to put it mildly. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Forum-y discussion

    [edit]

    Hi, there's a very WP:FORUMy discussion at Talk:British_Isles#Irrelevant_archaic_colonial_era_terminology which has been dragging on for months but is going absolutely nowhere. I'm involved so can't close it myself per WP:SUPERHAT, but if anyone fancies chucking some {{atop}} and {{abot}} templates around it so we can all get on with our lives, that would be appreciated. WaggersTALK 15:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Yeah, that seems to be going nowhere fast. I can't find any sort of actual suggestion from the IP as to what ought to be done and nobody agrees with them; I've collapsed the whole thread and suggested that if anyone has concrete suggestions and policy-based reasoning they should open a move request. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Unban request for Kansascitt1225

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    Kansascitt1225 is considered banned by the community due to extensive sockpuppetry, see Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Kansascitt1225. They are requesting the ban be lifted and I am posting their request below. As a WP:CHECKUSER, I see no evidence of recent block evasion. Their request from August 16 indicates they haven't evaded in eight months, so that would make it about 11 months now. I lost track of this unban request due to 2024 Jasper wildfire and COVID-19, my apologies to Kansascitt1225 for making them wait so freaking long to start this discussion. I have very slightly altered the request to nowiki the references, to make them more obvious on this discussion page. --Yamla (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi admins, I have not edited Wikipedia since December of 2023. I was unable to continue responding to my last request due to personal circumstances and going out of town. I have demonstrated that I can follow simple, clear instructions which shows I am able to abide by community rules and not bypass my block. I would appreciate being given wikipedias standard offer. I promise to not use multiple accounts which is the behavior that got me blocked to begin with. Most of these accounts were improperly used for persistent block evasion. I don’t want to give anyone anymore reasons to object. I know now that if I have a disagreement with someone I can talk on the talk page or on their user talk page instead of edit warring or creating an account. I have learned that civility is important on Wikipedia too and have become easier to get along with as I am older now also. I want to make constructive edits to Wikipedia and am interested in demographics and geography along with world and cities populations. I am trying to keep this short and I promise that I don’t intend to be disruptive to the project at all. I know it was a problem on my investigations case page me objecting to “largely suburban” on the Johnson county pages. I truly believed I was doing the right thing as I was always taught where I was growing up that a suburb was a more car centric place that is less dense within commuting distance of a city which is currently what the suburb page says now. I intend to edit this page to educate people that sometimes especially in the US that suburbs is where most jobs are located. In the case of Kansas City this suburban area and the municipalities within it have lower single family housing rates, more jobs, more population and higher density than the city with some suburbs walking to work more than the city. I wanted to make this clear. I do have good references for this including from the us census bureau. I think the main issue I had with the content is that calling the communities like Overland Park and Johnson county “suburban” makes people think that more people commute out than into these places and that these places are less dense and have more single family housing, which is the complete opposite of reality. I won’t remove anything about these communities as being suburban but want to include that they have more density, more jobs and lower single family housing rates so people don’t get confused. I also edited a while ago (more than 6 months) the Economy of St. Louis page and showed how white flight influenced the city’s economy as it was the same for Economy of Kansas City and wanted to edit the page to make it more accurate instead of saying the economy is anchored by Kansas City Missouri even though there’s more jobs outside the city than within it. I have edited these before while blocked but not within the last 8 months. I want to make constructive edits to improve the encyclopedia and working cooperatively with others is what I intend on doing. I was also upset that this was removed as biased, misleading and false to the point the page was protected and from my point of view I felt as though I was being blatantly lied too. It’s a well known fact that Kansas City has experienced decades of white flight and urban decay and I think I was also caught off guard by people in Kansas City calling these places suburbs meanwhile them having these characteristics.
    - Here are some references
    • States that Most United States jobs are in the suburbs <ref>{{cite web|url= https://www2.census.gov/about/training-workshops/2021/2021-05-19-led-presentation.pdf}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.newgeography.com/content/005264-suburbs-continue-dominate-jobs-and-job-growth#:~:text=Most%20Jobs%20Growth%20Since%202010,overall%20combined%20share%20of%20employment.}}</ref>
    • States that Single family detached homes are less common in some of the suburbs compared to city in the Kansas City area. <ref>{{cite web|url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=DP04&g=160XX00US2053775,2938000}}</ref>
    • Shows that there is a Higher population density in some of the suburbs of Kansas City <ref>{{cite web|url=https://statisticalatlas.com/metro-area/Missouri/Kansas-City/Population#figure/place/population-density}}</ref>
    • comparison that shows people walk to work more in some of the suburbs than the city <ref>{{cite web|url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=commute&g=160XX00US2938000}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=commute&g=160XX00US2039350}}}</ref>
    Kansascitt1225 (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi @HandThatFeeds: thank you for reading my unblock request. I’m not sure if you read these references or not, but the overwhelming majority of jobs are in the suburbs in the United States. In Kansas City for example only around 4% of jobs are in the central business district and only 30% of the Kansas City areas jobs are in the city of Kansas City, Missouri. Could you please explain how this would be tendentious editing so I can avoid it the future ? I can’t find any evidence for the contrary and genuinely do want to work cooperatively with others and I honestly don’t see how this is breaching Neutral point of view.
    • Census publication <ref>{{cite web|url= https://www2.census.gov/about/training-workshops/2021/2021-05-19-led-presentation.pdf}}</ref>
    • Website article <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.newgeography.com/content/005264-suburbs-continue-dominate-jobs-and-job-growth#:~:text=Most%20Jobs%20Growth%20Since%202010,overall%20combined%20share%20of%20employment.}}</ref>
    • Sample of jobs in central business districts. <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.demographia.com/db-cbd2000.pdf}}</ref> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kansascitt1225 (talk • contribs)
    Honestly, this just proves my point: rather than building up trust in the community by doing literally anything else, the user wants to go back to an area to educate people that they are right, and is arguing over sourcing rather than understanding that their behavior is the problem. Kansascitt1225, if you want any hope of ever being unblocked, you should step away from this topic entirely and work on something else. If this is the only thing you're interested in working on for Wikipedia, I'd suggest just moving on to some other site. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Kansascitt should move on to different projects. I'd suggest taking pictures of subjects that are highly needed in articles, Commons is all about contributing with highly educational value images. Ahri Boy (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    [edit]

    Red link example is permanently protected as a link that can be used in documentation and testing (note the page protection summary).

    I have created User:Red link example for the same purpose.

    Can someone kindly permanently protect the user, talk and sandbox pages, with an edit summary similar to the above?

    Once done, I will also request that the account be globally locked. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

     Done voorts (talk/contributions) 21:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Checkmark This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Unban request for Wikiuser1314

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    Wikiuser1314 is banned by the community under WP:3X. They were initially blocked as a sock of WorldCreaterFighter who has a long-term abuse page, see Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/WorldCreaterFighter. They claim to be unrelated, but admit a long string of sockpuppets. As a WP:CHECKUSER, I see no evidence of recent block evasion. I solicited feedback from other checkusers on the cu mailing list but did not get a response. --Yamla (talk) 21:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Hello Wikipedia community! At first I want to apologize for my past mistakes. I want to face my past and work to regain the trust of the community. Quite some time has passed, and I fully understand my wrongdoings now. After waiting the mandatory six months since the block of this account, I sincerely ask for a WP:UNBAN process. – To better understand and summarize my past mistakes, I will try to exlpain how it started: my first account user:Satoshi Kondo (no access anymore), which initially got blocked because I stupidly created two other accounts at that time user:일성강 and user:Kumasojin 熊襲 simultaneously. I attribute these quite stupid actions to my then quite young age of 15 years old in 2016. After some time, those three accounts got correctly blocked as confirmed to each other, but later got merged into the "WorldCreatorFighter" sock-zoo, which now is confirmed to represent (at least) two distinct users (the other being user:Vamlos). I was however to dump and too impatient at that time to explain or wait and apply for a standard offer. As such, the misery started, paired with other rule violations and childish behavior on my side, such as being too impatient and too fixated on my personal views (regardless of if they were correct/sourced or not) and did aggressively try to implement them here. – My blockes were justified and I am ashamed of my past mistakes. Since late 2022, and with this account (Wikiuser1314), I learned a lot, not only here on Wikipedia, but also in real life. I improved myself, became more patient, more cooperative and appreciated to work together with other users. In short, I got older and learned from my past. For that, please also take a look at my talk page and edits of this account (Wikiuser1314). – I really want to constructively and positively edit and contribute to the Wikipedia project, together with fellow Wikipedians, and according to the rules. I do not want to run away anymore and hope to get a chance to prove myself. I am ready to fully cooperate with the Wikipedia community to regain trust. I am also ready to reveal my real identity to administrators and get in contact with them, to explain myself and for further details if it is necessary. Thanks. Sincerely – Wikiuser1314 (talk) 12:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I then asked, Please list all of the accounts you've used. A good place to start is Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of WorldCreaterFighter and Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of WorldCreaterFighter. I'm primarily interested in accounts you've used in the past year that we haven't listed there and primarily interested in accounts you claim do not belong to you. --Yamla (talk) 12:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @Yamla: Embarrassing for me, but here are the accounts I once used: User:Banjardar, User:Bharat99x2, User:Kumasojin 熊襲, User:Kush3897, User:Ogbuago, User:SapmiSamo, User:WhiteTeaWiki, User:X Aterui x, User:일성강, User:突厥 哈萨克族, User:2001.4bc9.824.e0e4, User:AmurTiger18, User:AntiTuranism1908, User:Ape-huchi, User:Arario, User:Arkiat, User:AsadalEditor, User:AustronesianTaiwan, User:Azazmeh, User:Baikal13, User:BaiulyQz, User:Bayan Khagan, User:Benjamin Samasa?, User:Benji887, User:ChampaDroid, User:DeEnTranslator?, User:GanjDareh4, User:GoguryeoHistorian, User:Gyatso1, User:HainanTai, User:Heiwajima20Ip, User:HlaaluTW, User:Hmoob Yao, User:Jäkke34, User:JihoHone, User:KalifFR?, User:Kang Sung-Tae, User:KinhyaKing, User:KuroZetsu oho, User:KwestaPC, User:Lankaman20, User:LenguaEditar?, User:Lord Huynh, User:Magyarrider, User:Manasam98, User:Mandari9, User:Masamannamasam, User:MLx22, User:MomotaniSS, User:MomotaniYY, User:Nam Việt 18, User:OghurBushi, User:Quapaw, User:Rimisibaqwa, User:RobertoY20, User:Ruuchuu, User:Sakushain, User:Satoshi Kondo, User:Saxhleel, User:Shatuo, User:ShiroEmishi, User:Skaalra, User:Takeshima42, User:TAMILinJAPAN, User:TamizhUser, User:Tiberiussan, User:Tomislav22, User:TürkSamurai, User:Turukkaean, User:Whhu22, User:WikiEdit2204, User:Wikiworkbot2.0, and User:YonaguniFan.
    —
    The others in both lists are unrelated to me. (Not me:User:WorldCreaterFighter, User:ConspiracyThinkerPeople, User:Dddcg, User:DerekHistorian, User:DragoniteLeopard, User:Jinjin555, User:KnowledgeAndPeace, User:Lynch Kevin de León, User:TechnichalProblems, User:WorkingCatDog123, User:Adygeheipeople, User:BoxRec9, User:CantoneseMaster, User:ChowChowWong, User:Dan Capoccia, User:Deccodabo, User:DrKoraKora, User:Gailververgailqqq, User:HeichtiSmech, User:InternationalAffairs3, User:LemanderOrange, User:MasterChai, User:Namela123, User:OrenburgNative, User:OttoKhan, User:PeopleTaking11, User:Pinoy123xaaa, User:Robela2, User:Spiritclaymore, User:SushigirlJessice, User:TelephoneBaby, User:ToRespond, User:TurkicDelight, User:Verakhu, User:WayneMacleod1, and User:WuyueDNApeople. )
    —
    Accounts once associated with me, but not blocked/listed here should be these: User:Orange172212, User:Noble4c2, and User:Krause96. – Wikiuser1314 (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • If this user is really distinct from the master of the WorldCreaterFighter sockfarm, we couldn't distinguish them by behaviour nor by technical data, and we have a lot of those data points. At some point when we get into the hundreds of accounts that both look and act the same, we stop bothering to carefully distinguish one account from another, because they've collectively been so disruptive over such a long period of time that there's practically zero chance of them ever being unblocked, and each new one is just adding to the garbage heap. So maybe Wikiuser1234 is a different person, maybe they're not; to me it's irrelevant, and policy supports this irrelevancy. This case goes back over a decade, has been persistent throughout that time, and involves pushing fringe theories in a sensitive subject. I'm inclined to say never here, but I'd like to hear from people who edit that topic and have had to put up with this for a decade. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Do we know when the most recent sock was? There's too many here for me to hunt-and-peck looking for it. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Based on manual investigation (!!!) of the self-declared socks, Wikiuser1314 last edited articles on 2024-04-22. Prior to that account, Krause96 on 2023-08-02. --Yamla (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wikiuser1314: what do you plan to edit if unblocked? Articles, topic areas, etc... what are your interests? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support There's every indication that the user is ready to be reintegrated into the Wikipedia community. They waited out the required six months patiently, made a perfectly reasonable unban request, and came clean about their past accounts. Their most recent account, User:Wikiuser1314, made over 1500 edits over a period of 1.5 years without causing any disruption. I don't see any value in preventing them from continuing to positively contribute to the project. 78.28.44.127 (talk) 12:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. A solid six-month wait and a strong value to future constructive contributions seem that the user will not repeat the same mistake he did before. Welcome back. The community might trust you again. Ahri Boy (talk) 05:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    IP hopper back at the Help Desk

    [edit]

    There's an IP hopper back at the WP:HD posting stuff like this. This kind of thing has been happening on and off at various pages (e.g. WP:THQ) for awhile now and seems to resume eventually whenever the PP runs out. There seem to be different versions of essentially the same post being added, but they're all in non-standard fonts. I think some of the accounts have been blocked, but that hasn't slowed this person down. Is there any thing that can be done outside of page protection? I don't have much experience with WP:LTA, but it appears this might be one of those cases. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The disruption seems to have stopped for now; so, perhaps nothing needs to be done at the moment. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am sorry but probably nothing can be done. May be some ranges can be blocked but they seem to use multiple ranges. Ymblanter (talk) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This now seems to be being discussed in more detail below at #Seeking opinions: protection of the help desk and teahouse; so, perhaps this thread can be closed. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Flamewar at Wikipedia:Requests for permissions over BilledMammal

    [edit]
    Issues resolved, editors aware of the proper location(s) to raise concerns should they arise again. Star Mississippi 03:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    BilledMammal was recently granted rollback permissions by Just Step Sideways and used those permissions to mass-revert CarmenEsparzaAmoux, a blocked sockpuppet. Makeandtoss and Zero0000 (an admin) are now arguing at that thread the permissions were wrongly granted.[5] Both of them should be told to knock it off.

    First of all, RFP is not the right place for that discussion as both editors were warned by Extraordinary Writ, an uninvolved administrator, though they have continued arguing. Second of all, Extraordinary Writ and other admins have explained that to revert edits by banned or blocked users in defiance of their block or ban (but be prepared to explain this use of rollback when asked to) is an acceptable WP:ROLLBACKUSE.

    I would appreciate it if uninvolved administrators can step in and close that thread since RFP isn't the appropriate forum for lengthy discussions of tool use. I'd also like a clear consensus over whether or not rollback was acceptable here.

    For full context, Makeandtoss and BilledMammal were involved in a dispute over the Palestine-Israel topic area that made it to WP:AE in June, and the use of rollback occurred within that area. Makeandtoss was given a final warning by ScottishFinnishRadish for behavior that falls below the required level required when editing in contentious topics[6] and previous battlegroundy behaviour in the area. There is probably a further conduct issue that can be dealt with here or at AE, but the immediate action should be to close the RFP thread. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I agree that PERM is not a place for debates. I've shut it down. I don't think that was an INVOLVED action as all I did was respond to the intial request, not the ensuing argument. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You conflicted my edit! ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:09, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And you thanked me for it. Go team. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    No idea what the justification is of this use of rollback[7], not reverting a blocked editor in any case. Fram (talk) 19:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    [8] ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For the lazy: it was an accident. I definitely misclicked rollback within a day of getting the permission, and I bet at least half of our rollbackers/admins have done the same. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Fun fact: although I work permission requests semi-regularly, I hate the rollback function, I use a script that blocks it (if you didn't know, admins have no choice whether they have it or not), and I use Twinkle instead. It's too easy to make mistakes with normal rollback. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I hit a rollback button accidentally several times a week (much more often than I rollback anything), so I also use that blocking script, and rely on Twinkle for rollback. Donald Albury 19:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    When I got my admin tools rollback showed up on my watchlist. As I edit from my phone pretty often and mistaps are common, I immediately sought out help and installed a script to hide it before I got desysop'd for cause. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This has happened to me before when I try to edit on my phone. Looking at a page history, the link to look at an edit/diff is right next to the link to rollback and I've misclicked. Luckily, you can rollback a mistaken rollback. I've stopped doing much work on my phone if it involves looking at individual edits. Liz Read! Talk! 19:43, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am actually using a script which blocks rollback on my watchlist (the highest chance to misclick due to banners on top loading slowly) but not on page histories or user contributions. I have a global rollback, but I do not think this matters. Ymblanter (talk) 22:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I use one to shrink the rollback button so that I am far less likely to accidentally click it. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 03:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The remove rollback script is at Wikipedia:User scripts/List#Rollback/reverting. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is a gadget that will require a confirmation before clicking. NightWolf1223 <Howl at me•My hunts> 20:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The best mobile environment on offer for Wikipedia editing (Monobook with the "responsive mode" option enabled) automatically turns on this confirmation in small screen mode. In practice, that means I get a confirmation dialog on my phone but not on my laptop. No idea whether similar features exist in other skins. —Kusma (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I still believe there's an issue here. Makeandtoss appears to have a grudge against BilledMammal and ignored repeated attempts to de-escalate at WP:RFP/R. Would WP:Arbitration Enforcement be a better location for that thread? I'm asking for permission as WP:FORUMSHOPPING precludes me from bringing up the same topic at two noticeboards. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Chess:You got it the wrong way around: BilledMammal seem to have a grudge against Makeandtoss (and Nableezy, and me, and anyone else who isn't pro-Israeli enough). I haven't seen Makeandtoss filling WP:ARB, WP:ARCA, or WP:AE with reports about BilledMammal, but I have literally lost count over how many times BilledMammal has reported his "adversaries" these last couple of weeks, Huldra (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would concur that BilledMammal has been demonstrating a bit of a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude of late that is somewhat alarming. Granting them extra tools at this time and seeing them possibly mis-used is alarming. Simonm223 (talk) 13:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, that would be the third noticeboard you bring me into today. The claim that the respectful discussion at RFP/R was a "flamewar" is misleading. As for the other claim, are you really arguing that if someone filed a report against me in the past I am not allowed to dispute any of their editing behavior in the future? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Flamewar" may be a slight overstatement, but WP:PERM is not a noticeboard, and not the right place to bring up such concerns, valid or not. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay sure, if I have new relevant concerns I will open a discussion elsewhere; though I will note that PERM is listed as a noticeboard. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Makeandtoss: I want you to recognize that following BilledMammal to WP:PERM and opposing user rights grants is not appropriate in any situation. It wasn't a respectful discussion, you were told by an administrator to knock it off twice and kept going for days.
    The correct place to bring up improper usage of permissions is at this very board. That's why I asked for a clear consensus over whether or not rollback was acceptable here and why I redirected the discussion to this thread.
    Right now, you've made a non-apology and are insisting that because PERM is technically a noticeboard, it was appropriate to post there. That's not the right attitude. I would rather you acknowledge you were mistaken, and when you receive a warning from an admin in the future, to look at your own actions and correct course before a thread like this. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I’m not going to get too involved in this discussion as doing so would probably increase tensions, but this discussion, regarding objections to my signing of an RFC with a timestamp, was opened by Makeandtoss a day before the objections at RfPP, with the same editors participating. Personally, I’ve considered them related. BilledMammal (talk) 22:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The permission was granted by Just Step Sideways without commenting on the doubt that @Fastily: had just expressed. I stated my opinion there, gave examples of what I believe is misuse of the tool, and noted that I am involved in the area. (Despite what Chess claims in this make-trouble posting, Extraordinary Writ said nothing to me.) Then the conversation was shut down by Just Step Sideways with the comment that we should take it up on BilledMammal's talk page. However, BilledMammal was just being BilledMammal. My comment was to Just Step Sideways, who in my opinion should have looked at BilledMammal closer before granting this unusual power and should have undone the mistake when informed of how it was used. And should reply when their administrative actions are questioned (disagreement is fine). The issue isn't whether sock edits can be reversed—everyone knows it is allowed—but whether a protagonist in a contentious area should be given the ability to make mass reverts without looking at them in that area at all. In my opinion it shouldn't happen and I would never consider using my administrator access to the tools to do mass reverts like that (vandals excepted). I would look at the edits and keep what is good for each article, which was quite a lot in this case. By the way, calling that discussion a "flame war" is absurd. Zerotalk 01:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @Zero0000: Then the conversation was shut down by Just Step Sideways with the comment that we should take it up on BilledMammal's talk page. However, BilledMammal was just being BilledMammal. What does this mean? You never left a comment at BilledMammal's talk page, could you elaborate why not? [9] The only comment is about the accidental rollback.
    I also don't understand how this is a make-trouble posting. You and Makeandtoss clearly believe BilledMammal acted in error. We are now at the venue where that error can be corrected. Why am I, a non-admin, being forced to create a thread on the Administrators' Noticeboard to get you to properly discuss your concerns with other admins? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Gimme a break. "Both of them should be told to knock it off." is not a request for discussion. Nor are your subsequent comments. They are an accusation and request for action, neither of which have the least justification. Zerotalk 03:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Zero0000: My point is that this comment wasn't the best idea. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Zero0000 I’ve always treated blocked socks edits as something that could be reverted basically without looking at them. Other people can look at them and restore the ones they want, which is what happened here, but the removals themselves are a non-issue imo. What I wish actually existed was a way to auto strike a sock of a banned editors comments on talk pages. The whole point of BMB is that, regardless of if they are good or bad, edits by a banned editors are by definition disruptive and can be removed. Somebody used a more efficient way to remove them, good for them I guess. nableezy - 05:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It would actually be very easy to create a bot or user script like that - I no longer have the time, but you could ask at WP:BOTR. BilledMammal (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Incidentally, WP:PERM is by design a place where decisions are made over whether someone should be given an elevated permission. I don't see why that should exclude objections to the result when the case file is still there. The record is better served by keeping it together than by moving it somewhere unrelated. Zerotalk 04:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The perm was granted already, there's not really a need to argue or continue the discussion there as opposed to a talk page or noticeboard. At this point, from my point of view, the only thing to consider is whether they have violated WP:ROLLBACKUSE, which it does not seem like they have (minus a misclick, which happens). So, until they do, it's best to just let it be with your original objections having been noted at the request. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, and I never had any intention of commenting on it further until Chess decided to make an AN case out of it. Zerotalk 02:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Please stop merging Mahsa Amini into Death of Mahsa Amini

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    Mahsa Amini article is going wrongly to merge into Death of Mahsa Amini. Merging these articles is wrong because both article are notable and specially where Mahsa Amini has received Sakharov Prize. I think a person who receive this important prize must have an article independently. Please stop merging these articles. AlijenabH (talk) 19:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The merge is occurring due to the closure decision at Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini#Proposed merge of Mahsa Amini into Death of Mahsa Amini. Admins don't overrule consensus decisions on content. If they did, they'd likely be facing a recall discussion. You can try talking to the editor who closed the Merge discussion but it's unlikely to change the outcome of the discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 19:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That would be me, and they did, but I guess they were impatient, because they came here about half an hour later. I'm continuing the conversation at User talk:Compassionate727#Mahs Amini. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 23:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    CheckUser and conflict of interest VRT appointments, November 2024

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    The Arbitration Committee is pleased to appoint the following user to the CheckUser team following private and public consultation:

    In addition, the following administrators are appointed to the conflict of interest volunteer response team following private and public consultation:

    The Committee thanks everyone who participated and helped bring this process to a successful conclusion.

    On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Sdrqaz (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § CheckUser and conflict of interest VRT appointments, November 2024

    Request for Draft Creation: এ.কে.এম দুলাল ডিগ্রি কলেজ

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    Hello administrators,

    I am requesting assistance with creating a draft article titled "এ.কে.এম দুলাল ডিগ্রি কলেজ". When I attempted to create it, I received a message indicating that the title is restricted due to blacklist criteria for Bengali language titles. This institution is a college in Ashuganj, Brahmanbaria, Bangladesh, and it aims to provide higher education to local students in a rural area with limited educational resources. Here is a brief overview of the college:

    Establishment: February 2020 Founder: এ.কে.এম দুলাল Principal: আহম্মদ উল্লাহ খন্দকার Location: শরিফপুর, আশুগঞ্জ, ব্রাহ্মণবাড়িয়া, Bangladesh Affiliation: Cumilla Education Board EIIN Number: ১৩৯৬৫১ Facebook Page: akmdulaldegreecollege Motto: "Education is Power" (শিক্ষাই শক্তি)

    The college was established to provide accessible higher education to students in nearby villages, where such opportunities were previously limited. The college’s mission is to promote modern and scientific education to create a knowledgeable and self-reliant society.

    Since I cannot create this page directly, I kindly request that an administrator help with creating the draft or advise me on how to proceed. Thank you very much for your assistance. A K M Dulal (talk) 04:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @A K M Dulal One thing that is necessary is to translate the name of the college into English, since this is the English Wikipedia. You'll also need to provide citations from independent coverage of the college in reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 04:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There are similar educational institutions, like 'ফিরোজ মিয়া সরকারি কলেজ and বিএএফ শাহীন কলেজ,' which retain their Bengali names in English Wikipedia, indicating cultural significance. I believe 'এ.কে.এম দুলাল ডিগ্রি কলেজ' also holds local importance, providing essential educational services to underserved rural areas. I am also happy to include an English translation if needed, for example, 'A.K.M. Dulal Degree College.' Besides, I will ensure reliable sources and references to meet Wikipedia’s standards. A K M Dulal (talk) 04:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Article titles must be in English. You should create a draft using the English name. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for the guidance. I understand that article titles need to be in English, so I will create the draft as "A.K.M. Dulal Degree College." I will also include the Bengali name in the article introduction to honor its cultural significance, similar to ফিরোজ মিয়া সরকারি কলেজ and বিএএফ শাহীন কলেজ, which retain their Bengali names within English Wikipedia articles. A K M Dulal (talk) 05:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @A K M Dulal: I can't tell what you're referring to – ফিরোজ মিয়া সরকারি কলেজ and বিএএফ শাহীন কলেজ do not exist. jlwoodwa (talk) 08:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But they do on Bengali Wikipedia. @A K M Dulal:, if you want to write your article in Bengali please be aware that this page, and the instruction that article titles must be in English, only relate to the English Wikipedia. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    While you’re at it, please read WP:COI. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Samantha Crawford (soprano) page nofollow index help

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    I am hopeful someone can help me here. I have made significant improvements to the article "Samantha Crawford (soprano)", ensuring that it complies with Wikipedia's notability guidelines by adding reliable, third-party sources. These sources clearly establish that Samantha Crawford (soprano) is a notable soprano, with significant international performances, verified recordings by verified music labels, and media coverage. I’ve carefully reviewed the criteria for biographies of living persons and have incorporated independent references that demonstrate her impact in the opera and concert world. Could an admin please advise on the next steps to have the "<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow,max-image-preview:standard">" tag removed? I would appreciate any guidance on addressing any remaining concerns about notability or sourcing. Thank you for your time and assistance. I have tried addressing this on my talk page but have received no answer, so hoping I'm in the right spot here. -EB Eshbowman Eshbowman (talk) 14:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi. What's your connection to the subject? There's certainly some promotional language in there that needs removing. Secretlondon (talk) 14:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It will be no-indexed until it's marked reviewed by an editor with new page patrol. Please see WP:NOINDEX. As an aside, the article appears to be quite promotional. Do you have a financial or other relationship with Crawford? If so, you must declare a conflict of interest per our conflict of interest policy. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the article should be moved to draft. I just took a quick spin and it's not ready for mainspace. A lot of references don't support the points being made, there were copyvios and too close paraphrasing. It reads still like a resume, not an encyclopaedia article. Canterbury Tail talk 16:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And you must reply to the concerns raised on your userpage regarding undeclared paid editing before editing articles any further. I also note that concerns were raised 8 years ago (Special:Permalink/1257159884#Paul Appleby (tenor)) that you failed to address. These need to be directly addressed now. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. Wanting mostly to remove the noindex to allow search engines to find it means that they're more interested in the promotional purpose than encyclopaedic. Canterbury Tail talk 16:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Which, as it happens, is precisely why we use nofollow to discourage linkspam. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 17:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    noindex will be removed when the page is reviewed. I could be wrong, but I believe nofollow is built into the site infrastructure. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 00:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Closure request for Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive366#IBAN appeal

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    Would an administrator please close Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive366#IBAN appeal? I am not brave enough to test whether it is socially acceptable yet for non-admins to close discussions involving bans. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 22:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    There is a secret third option, if you are feeling brave.— Red-tailed hawk (nest) 22:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Compassionate727, complaints that have been archived are not edited so closing an archived discussion would not be appropriate because, basically, it would be hidden from view and, as I said, archives are not edited unless it is to revert vandalism to them.
    I would consider "unarchiving" this discussion and reposting the case here. But, regarding your main question, I don't think it's appropriate for a non-admin to close a discussion about imposing or lifting a ban or block although I'd like to hear from other admins here about this. Liz Read! Talk! 00:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    At one point it was unarchived, but then someone commented at CR that this was unnecessary, so nothing was done when it was automatically archived again. In my observation, editors split about 50-50 on whether it is okay to close an archived discussion without first unarchiving it (usually, a courtesy note is left on the active page when leaving it archived). At any rate, I don't care about the implementation details, as long as someone closes it. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 00:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if this query is not about a desired discussion outcome and more about your need for closure, then I think this request will not solicit any response from admins who review this noticeboard. Discussions on AN and ANI often get archived without any closure or action being taken. It's something you'll need to accept. Liz Read! Talk! 03:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    With five people supporting an unban vs. two opposing, one of two things should happen: the ban be lifted, or an explanation of why the opposing side's arguments were stronger be given. I don't think it's fair to the appellant that a consensus to unban seemingly have formed, yet the ban never formally be lifted because no admin could be bothered to take responsibility for it. That is why I posted here. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 17:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    archives are not edited unless it is to revert vandalism to them. Based on what happened at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 444, I would say that usually they are not edited unless it is for vandalism. Rare for discussions to be closed after being archived, but it happens. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Super Goku V, I find this surprising. Do any examples come to mind right now? Liz Read! Talk! 04:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Other examples, not immediately. But I should be able to get a list of some discussions in the next 30-ish minutes. (Going to go digging at Wikipedia:Closure requests.) --Super Goku V (talk) 04:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. Consider this detective work, not homework. Liz Read! Talk! 05:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Gotcha. Since this is would likely take half a day to type up, I will just list the results from Archive 1 and Archive 39 for Closure requests and some additional notes for the others typed up afterwards. (I was using the search results, hence the jump between multiple archives in the notes.) Collapsed for convenience. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Village pump (proposals)/Archive 78 (Request)
    2. Taiwan/Archive 20[A] (Request)
    3. Notability (people)/Archive 2012 (Additional edit; Request)
    4. Pakistan/Archive 14 (Request)
    5. Talk:Circumcision/Archive 70 (Request)
    6. Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 444[B] (Request)
    7. Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1169(-1170?)[C] (Request)

    Other results:

    Notes:

    Additional details:

    • Archive 4: 8 requests with all being done.
    • Archive 5: 6 requests with 5 done and 1 modified.
    • Archive 14: 17 requests.
    • Archive 19: 28 or so requests. Multiple done and a few not done.
    • Archive 22: 58 or 59 requests. Multiple done, few already done, at least 1 not done.
    • Archive 25: 20 requests.
    • Archive 30: 30 requests.
    • Total requests from Archives 1, 4, 5, 14, 19, 22, 25, and 30: 179 or 180.
    I'm not sure of how exactly to interpret this information but I appreciate your efforts and I think some of our data-loving administrators will find it interesting, too. Liz Read! Talk! 06:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Archive 444 was the first example mention, but that was a bit of an exception. RSN regularly grows to an unmanageable size, so restoring a near half megabytes discussion would have (and did) make the page semi-broken. It shouldn't be taken as any kind of precedent. Also notices where posted on RSN that the close(s) had taken place. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But at the same time, there are closes that occur after a discussion has found itself archived for one reason or another. Wikipedia:Closure requests/Archive 22 is the best example that I know of with over 50 requests. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's a consensus to vacate the sanction, but the other side of the IBAN opposes the idea. What's the play here other than to quietly allow status quo to remain undisturbed? I'd argue that it would be reckless to close that discussion. And as for closing archived threads, I've always felt that only archived threads should be closed since their archival indicates nobody had anything more to say meaning they're actually ready to be closed. 78.28.44.127 (talk) 00:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke closed

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    An arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke (formerly titled Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Backlash to diversity and inclusion) has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

    • Yasuke is designated as a contentious topic. Starting in 2026 and checked yearly afterwards, this designation expires on 1 January if no sanctions have been logged in the preceding 2 years.
    • The article Yasuke is subject to a 1RR restriction for a period of one year.
    • Eirikr is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
    • Symphony Regalia is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
    • J2UDY7r00CRjH is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
    • Yvan Part is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
    • Gitz6666 is warned that disruptive behavior will lead to increasing sanctions if they continue.
    • Elinruby is subject to a one-way interaction ban with Gitz6666, subject to the usual exceptions. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.

    For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust (talk) 22:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke closed

    i want to create userpage about me

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    can you create userpage of Jean Ngatcha this is my name. Jean Ngatcha (talk) 08:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Jean Ngatcha You are free to edit User:Jean Ngatcha to tell about yourself as a Wikipedia editor or user, not necessarily to tell anything and everything about yourself. Please see the user page policy as to what types of content are acceptable (and not acceptable) for user pages. Writing an article about yourself is entirely different, and highly discouraged, please see the autobiography policy. 331dot (talk) 09:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Deleted article question

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    The articles Max Israel and Y.Chroma were created by a new account yesterday, but I'm almost certain that they previously existed and ended up deleted for some reason. Is there any way to get a look at the page history of a deleted article that ends up being recreated under the same name? I'm also pretty sure the files used in the articles were previously uploaded and deleted too. I think the articles and files were created by this account but don't have the required permission to access the page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Hello, Marchjuly, you can also search here, Special:Undelete, although it will only identify deleted pages with the exact title you are looking for. It will not help with variations on a page title. Liz Read! Talk! 02:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for that bit of info. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Non-admins can't use Special:Undelete. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Extraordinary Writ, I know it won't show deleted content but I thought it would show an editor that there had been a page at the specified target that had been deleted. It would show that a page had existed but was deleted, kind of like a page log would. Liz Read! Talk! 05:01, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Seeking opinions: protection of the help desk and teahouse

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    Most of you have probably seen threads here or on the incidents board about MidAtlanticBaby (MAB for short), a long-term attention troll who targets the help desk and teahouse. They're the one that rapidly cycles through open proxies to repost their whine about being banned everywhere and blocked on IRC and not getting responses when they email the Foundation. They're banned from all those channels because any attempt to communicate with them is met with spamming death threats to the user, like this. Don't try to talk to them, WP:RBI is the only appropriate response.

    For the past couple weeks they've been spamming those two new user pages. Look through the history and you'll see many instances of an IP posting a message in an alternate unicode font, being reverted and blocked, and a new IP restoring the message within minutes. This can go on for hours, and only stops if the page is protected, which of course means that legitimate new users also can't post to those pages.

    Earlier in the week I set both pages to pending changes, thinking that this would allow new users to post through PC moderation but also starve MAB of the attention they crave. It seems to be working - they are active but have not tried to post on those pages - but at the same time there have not been many legitimate posts from anonymous users hitting the moderation queue either. Pigsonthewing asked on the Teahouse talk page to remove the protection, and other users have suggested that we should just let MAB run amok since someone has to revert them anyway even if their edits are paused in the PC queue. I'm on the fence myself if the protection is net positive.

    I'd like to hear what other users think. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I was actually just combing through the logs to look at who implemented pending changes, to start a discussion with them. I don't think pending changes really makes sense in this specific circumstance, since MAB's ostensible goal is to harass specific editors, and logged-in editors can see their posts through PC protection regardless of whether those posts have been approved or not, so PC doesn't really do anything to protect MAB's main targets. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think admins should be free tho deal with MAB as they see fit: short protections, blocks, and why not pending changes protection? There is no ideal solution, and being flexible in responses is a way to go imho. My take on pending changes has always been that it takes out the "immediate reward" part of trolling...I actually let the pending changes review lag for some minutes before reverting; some people have short attention spans. Anyway: pending changes is another way to deal with him, I would just shorten the time of protection. Lectonar (talk) 14:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      To be clear, I'm not opposed in principle to PC protection being used for this purpose (and certainly I don't think there was anything untoward with Ivanvector's use of it), I'm just unsure of the efficacy. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I didn't take it as being against pending-changes protection in principle; I just think that there's no right way to go about it, but also no wrong way. And as the WMF isn't moving, we are stuck with the instruments we have. Lectonar (talk) 15:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) As one of MAB's favorites, I understand the frustration in dealing with him. (Look at the > 100,000 byte edits on my talk page for examples.) I am pleased that he's found other ways to express himself while being saddened that others have to clean up his messes. What worked on my talk page was very brief semi protection combined with RBI and proxy blocks. Wish I had something better to offer. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm more or less in agreement with Writ Keeper. I don't want to go into too many details about how I normally try and deal with them, and unfortunately there's very limited ways to get admin coordination on the response.
    I'm more concerned that this harassment can keep up for months and there's no support from WMF to get the lists of residential proxies they're using, e.g. vpngate and massblock them. That shouldn't be foisted onto individual communities and bot operators. There are other LTAs that use similar methods to harass people, including non-editors, and we really need to be able to shut that down. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Amen, brother. Amen. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I echo ScottishFinnishRadish's point that we need more support to deal with long-term abuse like this. It's time-consuming and exhausting for admins to handle, and this is clearly MAB's goal. Well, that and to normalise death threats. MAB has kept this up for literally months, if (perhaps) not years. And admins shouldn't have to deal with this garbage. Every approach I've seen so far has simply moved him from one venue to another, but hasn't meaningfully reduced the frequency. I think if we bulk shut down all VPNgate proxies, that has a chance of working. I don't think anything less than this has a chance, but I support any attempts, including Ivanvector's approach. We need a much firmer approach with MAB. --Yamla (talk) 15:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, I think PC is the least bad option here. 331dot (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is exactly what I mentioned on Meta for admin retention strategy, which includes more resources from WMF to support admins dealing with persistent, long-term abuse. OhanaUnitedTalk page 22:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Double amen on getting the proxies list. Ridiculous that we don't have it. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Putting PC on the Teahouse in particular has a detrimental effect on its target audience - new, inexperienced users. As I said in the original discussion, if used in the case described, it should be for hours at a time, not a month. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed. MAB gets frustrated quickly and moves along. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The conundrum here is that if we protect for a short amount of time, or for a long time, MAB comes back within hours of the protection expiring. I agree that our goal here is to limit the disruption to new users, and I guess the question is: is it more disruptive to new users to have to submit their questions to a queue for approval (pending changes), or not be able to submit questions at all for a period of time (semiprotection), or to be frustrated by edit conflicts when MAB is active and spamming the page? We don't have a lot of good options here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think pending changes works perfectly well for this and don't really understand the opposition to it. It's not like newbies posting at the teahouse get immediate responses. They can also survive not getting immediate posting access. But semi-protection for an extended period of time is a bad idea, imo. -- asilvering (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For me, the issue is that they're normally reverted and blocked very quickly. Adding PC to that adds additional labor even when they're not actively trying to disrupt the noticeboards. I don't strongly object to PC, but I don't think it's actually benefiting us. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hm, that's fair. I don't really feel like periodically approving some pending changes is a lot of work, but I see what you mean. I'll be the "don't strongly support" to your "don't strongly object". -- asilvering (talk) 19:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A question in that vein: are users seeing a message that discourages them from editing pages under PC protection? I haven't been able to check, I'm on a corporate VPN. I can report that the message that logged-out editors get on proxy-blocked IPs is fairly discouraging. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Logged into my testalt – appears there's a list of info with the following wording:
    "Note: Edits to this page from new or unregistered users are subject to review prior to publication (help link).
    [Protection log entry for PC]
    The latest accepted version was reviewed on xyz date. There are x pending revisions awaiting review.
    The edit form below includes changes that have not yet been accepted. (show those changes)"
    It's all listed next to an information icon, so no red warning signs or (excessively) giant text for what it's worth. I can't say whether or not that deters any editors, though. Perfect4th (talk) 02:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know the edit filter is not a fix-all solution, but might it be useful in this case? --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Without going into detail, it's already being used. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I see. Well, in that case, (1) I would certainly defer to the judgement of people dealing with this user, but (2) if outside opinions are actively being solicited, I think I come down on the side of making Teahouse and Help desk more available to new editors, even if it means having to deal with more MAB posts. If we keep pending changes, asking more PCR's to watch both pages for legit questions might help. If we remove PC, then asking more admins to watch those pages and RBI might help. That's ... pretty useless advice, but it's all I've got. Floquenbeam (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm an administrator with over 11,600 edits to the Teahouse and it is definitely frustrating to deal with this driven individual. Rapid reverting and blocking is the obvious approach and trying to engage is an especially poor idea in this particular case. Personally, I find pending changes a clunky solution that may well deter new good faith editors. I agree with Floquenbeam that more adminstrator eyes on the Teahouse and the Help Desk would be a good thing, and if this conversation accomplishes that, then that is a positive outcome. Cullen328 (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I do not recommend engagement. It proved counter productive. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      (edit conflict) I thought I saw your face come up in the header yesterday. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If possible, I immediately unwatch all pages under PC (I really, really hate PC) so I am no longer watching the Teahouse or the Help Desk. Certainly protection of any kind for newbie-facing pages like these should be as short as possible. If we are fighting a single troll, I expect they will sleep every now and then so protection should be not longer than 16 or 20 hours at a time. —Kusma (talk) 22:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    My suggested approach to this type of individual has always that the Foundation should bring a legal proceeding seeking injunctive relief. I do not know whether that might be practicable in this instance nor whether the possibility has been explored. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I admit to some curiosity about how this would be possible but it seems like a WP:BEANS issue to discuss here. -- asilvering (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think we're in agreement here that protection on these pages is not ideal, especially not long protection. I'll lower it on both pages momentarily. Might I suggest that when MAB shows up again, short periods of PC would be preferred to short periods of semi? Or is consensus that we should not protect these pages at all and revert when needed instead? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I think we should at the very least protect the pages for long enough to get them to go elsewhere. I don't think that needs to be a long time - 10 or 15 minutes worked for me last time. -- asilvering (talk) 20:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      If we protect, it should be PC, not semi. Don't want to close the door on a newbie. That could have a lasting effect on the editor. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      And we don't care about the effect on established editors? Johnuniq (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I emailed JKoerner (WMF) a couple of weeks ago after seeing Relaunch of the Community Safety Survey. I gave brief examples of abuse and wrote Asking "have you felt unsafe or uncomfortable contributing to Wikipedia" is not appropriate when such extreme abuse cannot be prevented. I received a nice reply but do not expect anything further. It is past time for the community to push the WMF. We need a statement that they exist to spend money on maintenance or on marketing. Johnuniq (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Do you think they have any money to spare?[sarcasm] — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:35, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • (Non-administrator comment) Wouldn't it be wise to discuss further this wherever admins discuss LTA matters, i.e. maybe in a less public forum? Perhaps there's a chat or something? I'm not trying to prevent non-administrators from offering opinions, but it should probably be assumed that most LTA are aware of these noticeboards and the talk pages of the pages they're disrupting and are monitoring them to see what steps are going to be taken. The Help Desk was unprotected and the posts starting appearing right away. If WP:RBI is what needs to be done with respect to LTA, then even a discussion such as this seems to somewhat be giving the LTA what its wants. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    15.ai behavioral issues.

    [edit]

    HackerKnownAs (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    RocketKnightX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    15.ai (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

    The article 15.ai has numerous issues which I have called attention to on the talkpage. [10] [11]. The article was recently subject to an edit war [12][13][14][15][16] which made it to DRN Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#15.ai, however, the process has ultimately failed as after the moderator instructed editors to implement the change[17] as User:HackerKnownAs a clear WP:SPA [18] who demonstrates WP:OWNBEHAVIOR behavior[19] toward the article arrived and has reverted the agreed upon edits [20] [21][22] as well as reintroduced multiple problems to the article in terms of misrepresented sources as well as sources which are considered unreliable. The editor in question has characterized my removal of unreliable sources[23][24][25] as removal of well-sourced content followed by claims of insufficient citations is particularly concerning despite the fact that the sources I removed were declared unreliable per WP:WEGOTTHISCOVERED or in the case of Andrew Ng's The Batch, were marked as unreliable when the article was still a draft A large portion of the sources used are not reliable, notably The Batch, which appears to be the personal blog of Andrew Ng[26], but once the article was released from Draftspace the editor who is now vanished reinserted Andrew Ng as an erroneously flagged minor edit [27]. Likewise, at the recent request for protection the user has presented my conduct [28] as a large amount of nonconstructive edits. The AfD for the article was interfered with by WP:SPA vote-stuffing[29][30][31][32]. Other concerning events include the wholesale deletion of a talk page thread about potential WP:COI editing by a now-blocked IP editor [33]. Coupled with demonstrable evidence of off-site coordination in editing the article on 4chan (which is demonstrable in the archived 4chan thread used as a source in the article) and the apparent failure of the WP:DRN and the continued edit warring by User:RocketKnightX and WP:OWNBEHAVIOR from User:HackerKnownAs, I am raising this concern to the Admin Noticeboard. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 00:33, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I am currently away from my computer at the moment, but I would like to point out that it is very interesting that this user has conveniently omitted any mention of her accusatory, sanctimonious, and frankly alienating behavior (despite being a relatively new editor herself) that she has been called out for in the past. I will make a more detailed post when I get back, but I urge anyone reading this to take a look at the article’s edit history (and note the perennial participant of the persistent edit wars in the last few months) as well as her alienating comments on Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/15.ai/1 and wonder why she neglected to mention how she refused to elaborate on her unfounded accusations based solely on circumstantial evidence. HackerKnownAs (talk) 01:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    RocketKnightX seems to lack the sufficient maturity to edit Wikipedia, judging by the comments like this one. Ca talk to me! 02:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think this situation is more relevant to ANI than AN if you would like to move it to that noticeboard. Liz Read! Talk! 02:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    +1. Thanks for summarizing the recent edit wars, the most recent seem to involve experienced trolling as well. Suitable for ANI. – SJ + 03:29, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, RocketKnightX and HackerKnownAs are tag-teaming to keep the article against consensus.
    Note that all of HackerKnownAs edits are related to AI and 4chan, which is how this mess started in the first place.
    See also SirGallantThe4th, the GAN reviewer, only edits are to chess topics and 15.ai. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not know this person and I have never interacted with them. What are you people on about? Do the admins not see that these people are actively discouraging people from contributing to Wikipedia with this dishonest conduct? This kind of harassment needs to stop. HackerKnownAs (talk) 04:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a tactic HackerKnownAs often engages in, accuse everyone of everything and see what sticks. (Also, you don't need to interact with someone to tag-team with them.) 180.129.92.142 (talk) 04:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have always attempted to be cordial when interacting with editors on Wikipedia. I have also tried to always assume good faith as per WP:GOODFAITH, but the OP seems to not have the same courtesy, as she feels the need to throw out repeated baseless accusations of COI and SPA editing to multiple editors (WP:GOODFAITH), repeatedly bringing up other editors' contribution histories and patterns (WP:HOUND), and having an underlying hostile tone in repeatedly questioning others' credibility and motives (WP:CIVIL). Also, possibly a violation of WP:OUTING (or at least getting close to it) by extensively tracking and documenting other editors' patterns and suggesting connections to off-wiki groups?.
    I do not know what incidents you are referring to when you say I "often engage" in accusatory and underhanded behavior. I really am bothered by this entire exchange.
    And to repeat, I do not know who RocketKnightX is and I have never collaborated with them. I have interacted with SirGallantThe4th only when requesting a GA review, and have not interacted with him since other than when the article was under GA review, as was expected. HackerKnownAs (talk) 04:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    > Also, possibly a violation of WP:OUTING (or at least getting close to it) by extensively tracking and documenting other editors' patterns and suggesting connections to off-wiki groups?.
    So you admit you've engaged in off-wiki co-ordination? 180.129.92.142 (talk) 05:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I have never engaged in off-wiki coordination; I invite anyone here to scrutinize my edit history. I mostly stay around articles that I find more comfortable writing about. There is nothing wrong with that.
    I am frankly disturbed that this is even being suggested when I have made major contributions to several articles in my spare time. It seems hypocritical that OP dismisses IP editors' positions as inconsequential (as well as those of SPA editors), yet faces no backlash when these same "suspicious" editors support her position. There is a clear double standard happening here and I simply have not been paying enough attention to the politics of Wikipedia to point out every single time she has been doing this. HackerKnownAs (talk) 05:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So, no violation of outing. Understood. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 05:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    180.129.92.142, this is the Administrators' Noticeboard. Just because this is an open discussion doesn't mean you can cast aspersions and accuse editors of misconduct without providing evidence. If this continues, you will be facing a block. Like a registered account, you must abide by Civility, even when discussing disagreements. Liz Read! Talk! 06:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, understood. I will look for evidence. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 06:28, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Like many disputes in Wikipedia, this is both a content dispute and a conduct dispute. I acted as the mediator for discussion of the content dispute at DRN. The content dispute concerned what should be listed as the status of the web site in the infobox. The DRN thread was Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_250#15.ai. (The filing editor was then indefinitely blocked for conduct unrelated to 15.ai, and I continued the mediation because there were still editors in good standing who had a content dispute.) RocketKnightX was listed as one of the editors, and made a brief opening statement, but did not take part in further discussions until the other editors reached an agreement to say that the web site had been abandoned. The article was revised as discussed. At this point RocketKnightX reverted the revision and disagreed. I asked RocketKnightX if they wanted to take part in moderated discussion, but they did not answer. Since there was disagreement as to content that could not be resolved by discussion, I first asked if I should start an RFC, and then launched an RFC. The RFC is currently in progress at Talk:15.ai#RFC_on_Status_of_Web_Site. The content dispute should be resolved by allowing the RFC to run for a month. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See Editor Interaction Analyzer on 15.ai.
    20:29, 11 November 2024, RocketKnightX reverts 15.ai one last time and disappears.
    23:27, 13 November 2024, HackerKnownAs returns from 18 day absence (last edit before that was defending 15.ai) and requests page protection of 15.ai. Then reverts, 17:13, 14 November 2024.
    These two edit 15.ai when the other is absent.
    See Editor Interaction Analyzer on Talk:15.ai/GA1.
    SirGallantThe4th reviews 15.ai in 1 hour and 24 minutes, after 1 response from HackerKnownAs.
    (start, <51 minute gap>, response, <33 minute gap>, end)
    This is insanely quick, and is a sign of co-ordination. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 06:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, none of that is evidence. I've seen quicker GA reviews, start to finish—in fact, a recent one of mine, Talk:Checheyigen/GA1, took 29 minutes from opening to closing. I hope you're not accusing myself and the reviewer of off-wiki coordination? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course not. The difference being you're not a single purpose account. 180.129.92.142 (talk) 10:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Arbitration motions regarding Palestine-Israel articles

    [edit]

    The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

    Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom

    When imposing a contentious topic restriction under the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic, an uninvolved administrator may require that appeals be heard only by the Arbitration Committee. In such cases, the committee will hear appeals at ARCA according to the community review standard. A rough consensus of arbitrators will be required to overturn or amend the sanction.

    Motion 2b: Word limits

    Uninvolved administrators may impose word limits on all participants in a discussion, or on individual editors across all discussions, within the area of conflict. These word limits are designated as part of the standard set of restrictions within the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic. These restrictions must be logged and may be appealed in the same way as all contentious topic restrictions.

    Motion 2c: Word limits

    All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 1,000 words per discussion. This motion will sunset two years from the date of its passage.

    Motion 5: PIA5 Case

    Following a request at WP:ARCA, the Arbitration Committee directs its clerks to open a case to examine the interaction of specific editors in the WP:PIA topic area. Subject to amendment by the drafting arbitrators, the following rules will govern the case:

    • The case title will be Palestine-Israel articles 5.
    • The initial parties will be:
    • Aoidh will be the initial drafter
    • The case will progress at the usual time table, unless additional parties are added or the complexity of the case warrants additional time for drafting a proposed decision, in which case the drafters may choose to extend the timeline.
    • All case pages are to be semi-protected.
    • Private evidence will be accepted. Any case submissions involving non-public information, including off-site accounts, should be directed to the Arbitration Committee by email to Arbcom-en@wikimedia.org. Any links to the English Wikipedia submitted as part of private evidence will be aggregated and posted on the evidence page. Any private evidence that is used to support a proposal (a finding of fact or remedy) or is otherwise deemed relevant to the case will be provided to affected parties when possible (evidence of off-wiki harassment may not be shared). Affected parties will be given an opportunity to respond.
    Addendum

    In passing motion #5 to open a Palestine-Israel articles 5 case, the Committee has appointed three drafters: Aoidh, HJ Mitchell, and CaptainEek. The drafters have resolved that the case will open on November 30. The delay will allow the Committee time to resolve a related private matter, and allow for both outgoing and incoming Arbitrators to vote on the case. The drafters have changed the party list to the following individuals:

    The drafters reserve the right to amend the list of parties if necessary. The drafters anticipate that the case will include a two week evidence phase, a one week workshop phase, and a two week proposed decision phase.

    The related Arbitration enforcement referral: Nableezy et al request has been folded into this case. Evidence from the related private matter, as alluded to in the Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area case request, will be examined prior to the start of the case, and resolved separately.

    For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 05:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Arbitration motions regarding Palestine-Israel articles
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=1257551743"