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Mass suicide

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What are the beliefs of the Solar Temple? Emmaglisson (talk) 14:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd summarize it as a mix of Heaven's Gate and the Knights Templar. PARAKANYAA (talk) 07:06, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

to do

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Anyone can do this, but since I seem to be currently the only editor interested in editing this page this is mostly a note for myself, but here are some specific coverage issues/points for expansion that should be added to the article

  • fix up remaining awkward french turns of phrase
  • expand on canadian activities did this... sorta
  • expand on the specifics of what went wrong and why did this, could do more
  • replace cesnur sources as they are not reliable
  • expands on the specifics of their theology, what influenced them, etc did a lot, could do more
  • expand on how, exactly, this affected the anti-cult legislation kind of done, could do more
  • write an article for di mambro

PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

my plan for this is to cover the ideological background with regard to neo-templar history/all the inspirations and background here, and have more specific sections on the leader's activities on Joseph Di Mambro and Luc Jouret, because it's quite difficult to summarize the background when you're trying to trace the evolution of all three of these things at once PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:55, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Upon review the "cesnur source" is actually a trial document, republished by cesnur. Ideally I could find it somewhere else but I seem to be unable to. It's primary but CESNUR's issues don't factor into it so it seems fine. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+ integrate controversies stuff and beliefs section into wider body PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+ replace moran and reynolds and champion
they're not unreliable but there are better sources PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:06, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I have found more obscure French sources, ORT, Jacques Breyer, and Raymond Bernard are probably independently notable. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now I have made articles for all those things, Renewed Order of the Temple, Jacques Breyer, Raymond Bernard (esotericist). PARAKANYAA (talk) 07:57, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also plan to split off the "transits" as they each independently pass NEVENT and if I was to cover them each in the depth that the secondary sources do this article would be waaaaay too long. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:15, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
did that PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quotation marks on 'transit'

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PARAKANYAA reverted my edit adding quotation marks on 'transit'. My argument is that using the term without quotation marks appears to express support for OST doctrine, entailing that the suicides and murders really did transport ('transit') people to another planet. PARKANYAA's argument is that using quotation marks gets too repetitive because the term is repeated a lot in the text. My motivation is based on WP:NPOV (specifically the section on undue weight), which is a core Wikipedia policy, and hence it should take precedence over any considerations of style. It is much more important not to endorse the ideas of a mass suicide cult than not to annoy people with repeated punctuation. 62.73.72.3 (talk) 13:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Almost all of the (high quality with their own analysis, not just recycling the same 1994 era AFP/NYT/Introvigne sources) non-news sources just call it transit flat out. The news sources call it, inaccurately, a mass suicide, when it was also mass murder. Said sources usually say transit once in quotes, and then just repeat it. First transit, second transit, third transit, etc.
As to NPOV, NPOV is based on neutral representation in proportion to the reliable sources, not our own opinions. Hence there is no violation if every RS “endorses” their ideas than so do we. To do so against what the sources do is WP:RGW, and more of an NPOV concern by our policy - but, I do not think using the most used terminology to refer to what they did represents a justification of it in any form. There is also another problem in that this really is the only term used by most of the sources, and calling it a mass murder or mass suicide is inaccurate because it was both. The only word that doesn’t have this problem is “massacre”, which is a poor choice given it is a very NPOV word, which isn’t very justifiable here given it is infrequently used by non-news sources and doesn’t really indicate they did suicide too. There are also several words for massacre in French with markedly different connotations, which have all been used for the OTS in different contexts. I had great difficulty titling any of the event pages because of how uniformly they are referred to as “transits” by all non news sources.
I’m also fairly confident that repeatedly writing it in quotations to make a point violates the WP:MOS. So quoting it is not tenable, so it would have to be replaced with something else, but as you can see there is no other agreed upon word to replace it with. Replacing it also doesn’t work for many of the usages, where it is referring to the OTS-specific idea. I think the status quo, explaining what the term means and where they got the idea from, before using it in a context specific way, is the best solution, and is not out of step with how we treat other things like this onwiki. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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